Marty Baron
Appearances
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And you have also these parent companies which have other substantial commercial interests, and they're highly dependent on the federal government. And the federal government has probably more power today than it had back in the previous years, previous decades.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Well, I don't disagree with you that there has been a certain ideological rigidity within newsrooms and unwillingness to recognize nuance, a tendency on the part of particularly the younger generation, I think, to divide the world into victims and victimizers, oppressors and the oppressed, and basically see the world without nuance, see it through sort of a binary separation.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
I think that what that has done, I don't know that it has weakened. Certainly, there have been rebellions within newsrooms. I did experience that due to my efforts to try to enforce social media guidelines, for example. And then also in reaction to the George Floyd killing, the demand for greater diversity in the newsroom and in leadership.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
But I think that the unwillingness to sort of recognize nuances has hurt our credibility with the general public. That's where I think it's done real damage, is that it has contributed to the decline in confidence in major news institutions. And that's a perilous place to be.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
I think that's true. I think that we do not have a certain level of diversity that we should have as people from a lot of different backgrounds, people who didn't go to all the same sorts of schools. I certainly didn't, by the way. I did not go to an Ivy League school and I grew up in Florida and not in the Washington area.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And I just ended up there because I was approached about taking on the editorship of the Washington Post, which was a surprise to me. So I've always seen Washington as a bit of a bubble. And I think it is. And I think, look, we did work when I was at the Post, we did work to increase the diversity and respects other than demographic. And that was we tried to hire more military veterans.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
We thought that was important. The country had been at war for so many years, and yet we had very few military veterans in our newsroom. We needed more. We hired people who came from evangelical Christian colleges. I thought that was really important, given the importance of religion in this country and particularly evangelicalism in this country.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And to try to get more people from working class backgrounds as well. We need to do more of that. There's no question. I think there are a lot of people in the newsroom who don't understand the struggles and lives of ordinary people in the middle of the country. And we need to work harder at that. There's no question about that.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Well, I agree with you on that. I think, look, this was evident prior to Trump being elected. People have asked me what our failures were prior to Trump being elected. And I always say it wasn't the coverage of the campaign. It was what occurred prior to that, years prior to that, is that we didn't understand the country well enough. We just did not understand people's
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
struggles, their expectations, their aspirations, and we needed to do that better. And there's no question that, look, everybody, people talk about their life experiences these days, but everybody's life experiences, by definition, narrow. It's just them. Our job as journalists is to get outside of our life experience and understand the life, the experiences of other people.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And we need more people in our newsrooms who come from a variety of different backgrounds. And I think we should get to work doing that.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
That's a very interesting data point, that research that you did. And I think it does highlight just how sorely disconnected we are from so much of what is happening in the country. And I think that's something that definitely needs to be corrected and corrected quickly. It's caused for a lot of self-reflection on the part of all of us in the media.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And we need to make sure that that doesn't continue.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Well, clearly the definition of media has expanded tremendously. We've seen a radical change in the kind of media there is and a radical change in the way that media is consumed. And a lot of the new media is communicating with a level of authenticity or at least perceived authenticity that institutional media has been unable to deliver.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
We in traditional media have always focused on our authority, the reporting that we do, the verification process, all of which, of course, is essential and core to who we are and what we ought to be doing, what our mission is. At the same time, we are not communicating the same level of authenticity that A lot of the new media are.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And because we don't do that, because we don't communicate authenticity, we're not getting credit for the authority that we have. And people who do communicate authentically or perceived authentically, a lot of the new media, they're being given credit for authority that frequently they don't deserve. Not always. There are people who are quite capable who are doing that.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
But a lot of them don't deserve the authority. And look, this is a huge challenge. I mean, it's an opportunity, of course, to reach more people, but it's a huge challenge to traditional news institutions. And that's one that we clearly have to confront and we have to change.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Yeah, look, there are an enormous number of bad actors. I mean, by using the word authenticity, I don't suggest that many of them aren't bad actors. There are good actors, too. There are people who are doing really good work.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
I think there's a reason you have a podcast, that you developed a podcast because you saw it as a better way of communicating with people or at least potentially a more effective way of communicating with people. And there are a lot of other people who are doing that as well.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
So I don't want to discredit everybody who's in new media because they don't deserve to be discredited because many of them are quite good. But there are a lot of bad actors and spreading crazy conspiracy theories and a lot of hate. And that is the nature of the internet these days.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
is that it allows for that because it's a highly fragmented market and people are going to exploit that fragmented market for their own personal, professional, political, or commercial gain. And that's exactly what's happening. I would say, however, that traditional media is not irrelevant, as is often claimed by
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
people in that new media field by a lot of our politicians today, including, you know, Trump and Musk and, you know, whoever. And the reality is that we remain irrelevant. There is a reason why Trump is completely obsessed with traditional media. He would not be obsessed with traditional media if it were irrelevant. That would be insane.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And by the way, when Elon Musk stepped out of his, just recently stepped away from the White House, Who did he give interviews to, amazingly? Traditional media, the very media that he had denigrated all along.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Yeah, it's media. I mean, I think it is media. Media writ large? Absolutely. People who are on TikTok are having an enormous impact. I mean, people are forming their opinions of what's happening, let's say, in the Middle East based on a 15-second TikTok. They think they know everything based on the 15 seconds that they saw on TikTok.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Now, that is appalling, of course, anytime you're dealing with a complex environment. subject like the Middle East, which has centuries of history behind it. You don't want to think that you've absorbed everything you need to know based on something you saw in 15 seconds on TikTok. But there's no question that's media. That is how people are receiving their information, like it or not.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Well, look, one of the biggest challenges today, a huge challenge and problem for us is that we can't agree on a common set of facts. We can't even agree on how to determine what a fact is. All of the things that we've used in the past, education, experience, expertise, and actual evidence have all been discredited and not discredited, but denied and dismissed and denigrated.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
I think that consumers should be looking at that. They ought to be looking, does this person actually have an education in the field? Does this person have experience in the field? Does this person have expertise? Is there actual evidence? Can I see the evidence? Who is behind this?
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Use your critical faculties to judge the quality of information and the quality of the people who are disseminating that information and determine whether in the past you've relied on them. I mean, one of the interesting things about traditional media is that when there's a natural disaster, guess where people turn? They turn to traditional media.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
They don't turn to some of these fringe outfits to tell them where the hurricane is going to hit and what they ought to be doing or where the tornado is or anything like that or where the flooding is going to be. They turn typically to traditional media because look, there's a reserve of confidence in them because they know that they're going to get accurate information.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And so I think consumers of information need to look for that education, expertise, experience, and what is the evidence that they are providing? Are you just relying on your beliefs or are you confusing your beliefs with actual facts?
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Yeah, and I think the consumers of information have to work harder, but also those of us who are delivering information have to work harder to show people our work, to show people why they should believe us, not just to tell them what's happening, but to show them the work that we've done, the evidence that we're relying upon, be as transparent as possible, communicate more effectively, and make sure that we're covering the entirety of our communities and our society.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
in our country and do a better job of that.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
I think I would, actually, because I think I did a good job while I was there, and I think that was appreciated, and I was supported by the owner and the publisher at the time. Obviously, some things have changed, but I think it would be very risky for them to fire me And the news department continues to maintain its independence from the owner.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
The owner has not interfered in the news coverage as far as I know. And I think all of us would know because there would be an explosive reaction within the newsroom if he had interfered. So, yes, I think I would keep my job.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Well, I think what they're afraid of is they're afraid of being made a target by Trump, that he's going to do severe damage to their other commercial interests. I think in the case of Bezos, he's afraid of the impact that Trump can have on Amazon, which has enormous contracts, particularly in the area of cloud computing services with the federal government.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And he has a private commercial space venture called Blue Origin, which had fallen well behind SpaceX, the Elon Musk company, but was at the point of launching a rocket into orbit and then being able to start to compete really with SpaceX. It has now launched that rocket successfully into orbit, but it's highly dependent on contracts with the federal government.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And I think that's true of the other companies as well, the parent companies of CBS and ABC. So in the case of ABC, Disney depends on the federal government for approval of mergers and things like that, does not want to be in conflict with the president of the United States. And of course, Paramount, which owns CBS, wants to execute a merger with Skydance, and that requires approval by the FCC.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Well, absolutely. Look, I mean, Trump during his campaign promised to seek retribution on his perceived political enemies. That's what he's doing right now.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
You can see that, of course, in his attacks on law firms, law firms that have represented individuals and institutions that were opposed to him, seeking to bar them from access to federal government buildings, seeking to deny them any contracts with the federal government, basically punish them in every conceivable way. way, and really he's seeking to destroy those law firms.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
The same applies to universities, first with Columbia University, and then now with Harvard, of course. You can see that he's applying all of the, not just threats, but actually use of force and denying billions of dollars in grants to Harvard in an effort to force them to submit to his wishes. So that's what's happening. It's qualitatively different from what we've seen before.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And of course, the federal government has enormous power and Trump is exercising that power. Actually, not just exercising it, he's abusing it.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Well, I don't know if it was more robust. Certainly in the case of The Washington Post, they resisted, and I wish that Jeff Bezos would do the same. As I said, I think the news department continues to operate independently, and it's doing a great job, admirable job, of investigating what's happening in this administration.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And yet he has sought to repair his relationship with Trump by doing all sorts of things, the first one being killing an endorsement of Kamala Harris, and then
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Of course, donating to the inauguration, preparing at the inauguration, Amazon agreeing to a contract to buy the rights to a Melania Trump documentary about her own life for an extraordinary sum of money, and then Amazon agreeing to buy the rights to The Apprentice. I think what's different now is, well, you don't have a Congress that's doing its job.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
I mean, at the time of Watergate, you actually had some confidence that the other pillars of government would stand up. would hold up. And in the case of Watergate, you had a Congress that conducted an investigation that obtained internal tapes, and that made all the difference in the world.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
And now you have a president who has control of both houses of Congress, and you have a Congress, a Republican Party, that is completely servile.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
Look, in the past, I mean, I think sometimes we romanticize what the media was like. Keep in mind, I mean, we used to have incredibly wealthy owners of media, people like Hearst, who often collaborated with government. and abuse their power.
The David Frum Show
Why Are the Media So Afraid of Trump?
I mean, the Chandler family in Los Angeles, you know, remade Los Angeles, brought water from the Owens Valley in the north down to LA to essentially enrich themselves. So I think we romanticize what media ownership was in the past. I think that now a lot of media, big institutional media is owned by, first of all, very wealthy people who have other very substantial commercial interests.