Masha Gessen

On another level, you've argued the target was the new world order of law, justice, and human rights that was heralded in the wake of World War II.

Tell me about that.

I guess when you talk about international law here,

The history, including recent history, of what it has clearly not been capable of preventing or bounding is pretty long.

I mean, Israel and Gaza is ongoing.

Russia inside Ukraine is ongoing.

There was much about the drone strikes in the Obama administration that was not working through, let's call it, you know, a normal set of due process.

And frankly, Maduro himself said,

Which I think is very important to say in all this.

He was not a peaceful, humanistic, democratically elected leader.

He was a brutal, repressive dictator destroying his political opposition, remaining in power after losing an election.

And so when we talk about there being a tipping point, you know, are we just upset because it is Donald Trump doing it, but he is just revealing the way the world really works and has worked, just stripped of its veneer of bureaucratic opacity?

I've been thinking about the differences and similarities of Venezuela and Iraq, because ultimately Iraq is also the invasion of, is a betrayal of the international order, right?

But you watch through the quite long run-up to that invasion.

The Bush administration doing two things that at least reflect

A view that it should be caught trying.

One is there's a very long period of deliberation in America itself.

Deliberation with Congress.

Deliberation on Sunday morning news shows.

There is a long debate in this country in which arguments are being made back and forth, in which bills are being considered, in which debate is being had.