Michael Barbaro

were so offended and so convinced that it betrayed America's values that they released a report documenting it so the whole country could see it.

And they said, this will never happen again.

And here it is again, not conducted by the U.S.

per se, as it was after 9-11, but this time, in a sense, outsourced to a foreign country by American government officials.

How should we think about that?

Wow, they knew.

And why do you think that is, if you had to make an educated journalistic guess here?

I mean, first of all, that suggests that the men who end up in this prison in El Salvador have killed children, and I don't believe you found any evidence of that.

Putting that aside, this sounds like a spokesperson for the White House basically saying to the New York Times, we've seen all your reporting, we've seen these accounts of torture of men we put in this prison, and our response is, who cares?

Which is very striking.

I want to end by asking you what has become of men like Luis now that they are released?

Have they achieved anything resembling normalcy now that they are back in Venezuela, a country, of course, that they had sought to flee, which is why they came to the United States in the first place.

Now they are back having been through this experience.

What are they saying life is like right now?

This sounds like a form of PTSD.

For sure.

Well, Julie, thank you very much.

We appreciate it.

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