Michael Levin

It was a really good paper on them, crabs and various – like a rubric of different types of behaviors that could be applied to different creatures and they're trying to apply it to crabs and so on.

I've –

Consciousness, we can talk about it, but it's a whole separate kettle of fish.

I almost never talk about it.

Kettle of crabs.

In this case, yes.

I almost never talk about consciousness per se.

I've said very little about it, but we can talk about it if you want.

Mostly what I talk about is cognition because I think that that's much easier to deal with in a kind of rigorous experimental way.

I think that...

All of these terms have, you know, sentience and so on, have different definitions.

And fundamentally, I think that people can, as long as they specify what they mean ahead of time, I think people can define them in various ways.

The only thing that I really kind of insist on is that

The right way to think about all this stuff is from an engineering perspective.

What does it help me to control, predict, and does it help me do my next experiment?

So that's not a universal perspective.

So some people have...

philosophical kind of underpinnings.

And those are primary.

And if anything runs against that, then it must automatically be wrong.