Michael Regilio

I was like, I'm going to write a happy ending, but not just an ordinary happy ending. I'm going to write the happiest f***ing ending of all time. My goal was I'm going to drive the audience insane with happiness. And I think that what works about that is the one smart thing I'll say about Little Miss Sunshine is that you're creating a false binary.

I was like, I'm going to write a happy ending, but not just an ordinary happy ending. I'm going to write the happiest f***ing ending of all time. My goal was I'm going to drive the audience insane with happiness. And I think that what works about that is the one smart thing I'll say about Little Miss Sunshine is that you're creating a false binary.

at the end where Olive walks out on stage, you don't want her to lose the pageant, right? Because that would be horrible. But you also don't want her to win the pageant because that would be just cheesy, right? And you wouldn't really believe it.

at the end where Olive walks out on stage, you don't want her to lose the pageant, right? Because that would be horrible. But you also don't want her to win the pageant because that would be just cheesy, right? And you wouldn't really believe it.

And so one of the tricks at a climax is instead of having it be the good guys win or the bad guys win, which is just a sort of thing we've seen a gazillion times before and usually the good guys win, right? is to create a third option that nobody saw coming, like a third door that you didn't even know was there.

And so one of the tricks at a climax is instead of having it be the good guys win or the bad guys win, which is just a sort of thing we've seen a gazillion times before and usually the good guys win, right? is to create a third option that nobody saw coming, like a third door that you didn't even know was there.

You open it up and like in Little Miss Sunshine, it was just having Olive come out and like she loses, like she rips her pants off and is disqualified. But that's something that you're misleading your audience to think that the only choices are two choices, winning or losing, right? And then you go, no, no, there's a third option, right? That's going to exceed the audience's expectation.

You open it up and like in Little Miss Sunshine, it was just having Olive come out and like she loses, like she rips her pants off and is disqualified. But that's something that you're misleading your audience to think that the only choices are two choices, winning or losing, right? And then you go, no, no, there's a third option, right? That's going to exceed the audience's expectation.

The other example is in Toy Story 3. Like we did a lot of work

The other example is in Toy Story 3. Like we did a lot of work

to fool the audience at the end so that they thought that woody was still in the car in the college box he was going to college with andy and there's even a few shots pov shots from inside the box so that when andy opens up the box to give bonnie his toys and then finds woody at the bottom of the box it's a surprise not just andy but it surprised the audience right and so

to fool the audience at the end so that they thought that woody was still in the car in the college box he was going to college with andy and there's even a few shots pov shots from inside the box so that when andy opens up the box to give bonnie his toys and then finds woody at the bottom of the box it's a surprise not just andy but it surprised the audience right and so

I feel like humor is dependent on surprise. Like you got to catch your audience by surprise, but also emotion, like that sadness. I think that one of the reasons the end of Toy Story 3 is so emotional is because you don't expect Woody to be there. You're not expecting Andy to give him away. I feel like you can't be too clever about this stuff though.

I feel like humor is dependent on surprise. Like you got to catch your audience by surprise, but also emotion, like that sadness. I think that one of the reasons the end of Toy Story 3 is so emotional is because you don't expect Woody to be there. You're not expecting Andy to give him away. I feel like you can't be too clever about this stuff though.

Like I feel like you can't sit around and play a chess game with your audience and go, oh, I'm going to mislead them here and do X, Y, Z. But if you can, you just have to be aware of trying to create something new and surprising, you know, especially at the end of your story.

Like I feel like you can't sit around and play a chess game with your audience and go, oh, I'm going to mislead them here and do X, Y, Z. But if you can, you just have to be aware of trying to create something new and surprising, you know, especially at the end of your story.

Well, it's, yeah, no, it's a balance that you have to walk. And you want to avoid defying expectations for the sake of defying expectations, right? You want to defy expectations in order to create emotion. That's the goal, right? You don't want your audience to be bored. You don't want your film to be trudging towards some sort of obvious conclusion.

Well, it's, yeah, no, it's a balance that you have to walk. And you want to avoid defying expectations for the sake of defying expectations, right? You want to defy expectations in order to create emotion. That's the goal, right? You don't want your audience to be bored. You don't want your film to be trudging towards some sort of obvious conclusion.

So you want to keep things sort of up in the air and like, how is the hero going to get this thing to work? But yeah, audience expectations, I don't know. I just don't think about it too much. I'm going for emotion. I'm trying to like figure out like, what is the most emotional story I can tell?

So you want to keep things sort of up in the air and like, how is the hero going to get this thing to work? But yeah, audience expectations, I don't know. I just don't think about it too much. I'm going for emotion. I'm trying to like figure out like, what is the most emotional story I can tell?

You know what? This is something that I learned making this new video that I'm halfway through making about First Acts. I talk about two things, like how to get your audience on board with a character and then how to get your audience on board with that character's story. And when I sat down to think about what makes a great character and...

You know what? This is something that I learned making this new video that I'm halfway through making about First Acts. I talk about two things, like how to get your audience on board with a character and then how to get your audience on board with that character's story. And when I sat down to think about what makes a great character and...

What is going to make a character memorable or a character last? This was something completely new that I just sort of figured out or thought of, which is a lot of times your character and the world they live in are two sides of the same coin. So the example I always go to is Robin Hood, for example. Like you start off in Robin Hood and King Richard is the king.

What is going to make a character memorable or a character last? This was something completely new that I just sort of figured out or thought of, which is a lot of times your character and the world they live in are two sides of the same coin. So the example I always go to is Robin Hood, for example. Like you start off in Robin Hood and King Richard is the king.

It's the fair, just universe, right? Robin Hood is actually just Robin of Locksley. He's his nobleman. He lives in his castle. Like everything is cool. It's only when King John usurps the throne takes over England, right? Starts this reign of abusive taxation, right? That the world tilts, like the world becomes unjust, right?

It's the fair, just universe, right? Robin Hood is actually just Robin of Locksley. He's his nobleman. He lives in his castle. Like everything is cool. It's only when King John usurps the throne takes over England, right? Starts this reign of abusive taxation, right? That the world tilts, like the world becomes unjust, right?

And now Robin of Locksley can either live in an unjust world or he can go screw it. Like I'm going to rebel against King John. I'm going to go into the woods. I'm going to gather a band of merry men. I'm going to rob the rich and give the poor. So the world itself, the world becoming unfair is the thing that creates the hero, right? The hero becomes the antidote to the negative values of the story.

And now Robin of Locksley can either live in an unjust world or he can go screw it. Like I'm going to rebel against King John. I'm going to go into the woods. I'm going to gather a band of merry men. I'm going to rob the rich and give the poor. So the world itself, the world becoming unfair is the thing that creates the hero, right? The hero becomes the antidote to the negative values of the story.

And I think that when I started thinking about it a lot, I was just like, a lot of times what makes a hero very memorable is not the hero themselves. It's the world that they live in, right? And if you're describing the world and a problem in a world, that's something that makes it interesting. Jordan, this is a really good question.

And I think that when I started thinking about it a lot, I was just like, a lot of times what makes a hero very memorable is not the hero themselves. It's the world that they live in, right? And if you're describing the world and a problem in a world, that's something that makes it interesting. Jordan, this is a really good question.

And so the examples that I use are, well, for example, Thelma and Louise. Like in Thelma and Louise, those are two, like when you start the movie, they're just kind of two ordinary women. They're going on a weekend. They're going to have fun, right? Yeah. you create this huge doozy of an inciting incident, right?

And so the examples that I use are, well, for example, Thelma and Louise. Like in Thelma and Louise, those are two, like when you start the movie, they're just kind of two ordinary women. They're going on a weekend. They're going to have fun, right? Yeah. you create this huge doozy of an inciting incident, right?

Which is Thelma almost gets raped in the parking lot and Louise comes along and kills the guy, right? Oh, right. And then they realize that they're living in this misogynistic, sexist, hostile world, that no one's going to believe them. And they go on the lam.

Which is Thelma almost gets raped in the parking lot and Louise comes along and kills the guy, right? Oh, right. And then they realize that they're living in this misogynistic, sexist, hostile world, that no one's going to believe them. And they go on the lam.

I think what makes that story resonant and what makes them great characters was that nobody had seen two women in a Hollywood movie fighting back against sort of this universe of sexism and misogyny and male violence so defiantly, so sort of in your face, blowing up that trucker's rig and stuff like that.

I think what makes that story resonant and what makes them great characters was that nobody had seen two women in a Hollywood movie fighting back against sort of this universe of sexism and misogyny and male violence so defiantly, so sort of in your face, blowing up that trucker's rig and stuff like that.

And that was the thing that made the movie click with people is that sense of the character's defiance. Let me give one more example, which is I think that what made The Graduate such a resonant film for audiences back in the 60s was not really Ben Braddock. Ben Braddock's a nice guy, but he's a bit of a nebbish. He's not that interesting a character.

And that was the thing that made the movie click with people is that sense of the character's defiance. Let me give one more example, which is I think that what made The Graduate such a resonant film for audiences back in the 60s was not really Ben Braddock. Ben Braddock's a nice guy, but he's a bit of a nebbish. He's not that interesting a character.

What no one had ever seen before was the world. Like we'd never seen Mike Nichols showing us this world of sort of post-war ennui and shallowness and materialism. And so you're creating this sort of tilted universe world of post-war America and the sense of alienation and the sense of conformity. And then Ben is the person who's swimming against that tide, fighting against it.

What no one had ever seen before was the world. Like we'd never seen Mike Nichols showing us this world of sort of post-war ennui and shallowness and materialism. And so you're creating this sort of tilted universe world of post-war America and the sense of alienation and the sense of conformity. And then Ben is the person who's swimming against that tide, fighting against it.

And so when you're trying to create a character, a memorable character, one of the things obviously you want your character to be It's just interesting and be flawed in a certain interesting way. What you're also doing is creating a universe that that character is reacting to.

And so when you're trying to create a character, a memorable character, one of the things obviously you want your character to be It's just interesting and be flawed in a certain interesting way. What you're also doing is creating a universe that that character is reacting to.

And so in order to find something interesting, to find a new story, to finally get around to answering your question, one of the things you need to do is think about the world that your character lives in and how does that world that you're showing on screen reflect the problems in the real world outside the theater in a way that feels resonant to the audience. Does that make sense? It does.

And so in order to find something interesting, to find a new story, to finally get around to answering your question, one of the things you need to do is think about the world that your character lives in and how does that world that you're showing on screen reflect the problems in the real world outside the theater in a way that feels resonant to the audience. Does that make sense? It does.

Yeah, plastics. Like plastics is the line that makes you jump on board with him because he says, like the very first scene in the movie, his dad comes up and talks to him. He's sort of hiding up in his bedroom. And his dad goes, what are you worried about? He goes, I'm worried about my future. I want it to be different, right? So the whole movie is this allegory of conformity and nonconformity.

Yeah, plastics. Like plastics is the line that makes you jump on board with him because he says, like the very first scene in the movie, his dad comes up and talks to him. He's sort of hiding up in his bedroom. And his dad goes, what are you worried about? He goes, I'm worried about my future. I want it to be different, right? So the whole movie is this allegory of conformity and nonconformity.

Like he wants his future to be different. Then you just create this whole tilted universe of conformity, right? And then when he finds Elaine Robinson, she's the one person that he can stand to be with, the one person he can stand to talk to. That's what makes it interesting and resonant.

Like he wants his future to be different. Then you just create this whole tilted universe of conformity, right? And then when he finds Elaine Robinson, she's the one person that he can stand to be with, the one person he can stand to talk to. That's what makes it interesting and resonant.

Let me give you one more example, which is, I talked about this in my new video, like the dude in The Big Lebowski. What makes him interesting is that he's introduced in the screenplay as being like the laziest man in LA County, which makes him pretty high in the running for laziest man in the world.

Let me give you one more example, which is, I talked about this in my new video, like the dude in The Big Lebowski. What makes him interesting is that he's introduced in the screenplay as being like the laziest man in LA County, which makes him pretty high in the running for laziest man in the world.

He's not this traditional hero who has big dreams and big aspirations and is super competent or anything like that. He's just the dude. So why do you like this guy so much? Why is he such a beloved figure?

He's not this traditional hero who has big dreams and big aspirations and is super competent or anything like that. He's just the dude. So why do you like this guy so much? Why is he such a beloved figure?

The way you get your audience on board with a lazy bum who does nothing but smoke pot and go bowling is that you surround them with this universe of like super competitive, stressed out men, right? You have Walter. You have the big Lebowski himself. You have Jesus, the pedophile bowler. You have the sheriff in Malibu. Eight-year-old dude. You create this whole universe.

The way you get your audience on board with a lazy bum who does nothing but smoke pot and go bowling is that you surround them with this universe of like super competitive, stressed out men, right? You have Walter. You have the big Lebowski himself. You have Jesus, the pedophile bowler. You have the sheriff in Malibu. Eight-year-old dude. You create this whole universe.

You create this whole universe of people who are not chill, who are not laid back, right? And then the dude becomes heroic because he's so cool. He's so laid back. He's not trying to achieve anything. He's not trying to become anything different. He just abides. And that's what makes him heroic. That's what makes him like him.

You create this whole universe of people who are not chill, who are not laid back, right? And then the dude becomes heroic because he's so cool. He's so laid back. He's not trying to achieve anything. He's not trying to become anything different. He just abides. And that's what makes him heroic. That's what makes him like him.

So it's a really interesting question of like, how do you find something new? You identify some sort of problem in the real world, and then you create that kind of universe, a tilted universe in your movie.

So it's a really interesting question of like, how do you find something new? You identify some sort of problem in the real world, and then you create that kind of universe, a tilted universe in your movie.

It is interesting because he on the face of it would not be a character you root for because he doesn't seem to want very much. But as you put it, hero and world are two sides of the same coin. In your new video essay, you say that film, maybe better than any other medium, gives us characters who embody new ideals for how to live one's life.

It is interesting because he on the face of it would not be a character you root for because he doesn't seem to want very much. But as you put it, hero and world are two sides of the same coin. In your new video essay, you say that film, maybe better than any other medium, gives us characters who embody new ideals for how to live one's life.

Now, I don't know if the dude fits into that category, but What ideals do you think we need to live our lives well at this moment in history? Are there any movies or characters that are embodying those values really well right now?

Now, I don't know if the dude fits into that category, but What ideals do you think we need to live our lives well at this moment in history? Are there any movies or characters that are embodying those values really well right now?

Well, let me just, I'll bring up something which I don't think a movie has addressed yet, right? Which is, I mean, I think one of the problems that we all are dealing with right now is screen addiction, right? Like you walk out on the street, you walk down the sidewalks of New York and everyone's sort of staring at their screen.

Well, let me just, I'll bring up something which I don't think a movie has addressed yet, right? Which is, I mean, I think one of the problems that we all are dealing with right now is screen addiction, right? Like you walk out on the street, you walk down the sidewalks of New York and everyone's sort of staring at their screen.

And there's a way in which we live in this world of self-consciousness where we're performing our lives, right? We're performing for this invisible, unseen audience. Literally in our case right here. Literally in our case right here. And there's a way in which all of us are negotiating two selves. There's our digital selves and our analog selves, right?

And there's a way in which we live in this world of self-consciousness where we're performing our lives, right? We're performing for this invisible, unseen audience. Literally in our case right here. Literally in our case right here. And there's a way in which all of us are negotiating two selves. There's our digital selves and our analog selves, right?

And there's a way in which the digital self of the digital world is a very seductive thing, right? It's where a lot of work takes place. It's where you can make a ton of money. And it's all clean and frictionless. And like the thing with screens is, you know, there's no touch, there's no smell, there's no taste.

And there's a way in which the digital self of the digital world is a very seductive thing, right? It's where a lot of work takes place. It's where you can make a ton of money. And it's all clean and frictionless. And like the thing with screens is, you know, there's no touch, there's no smell, there's no taste.

Like it's just very, we have this new problem, which is like we are haunted by our digital selves and haunted by this sort of generalized other that we're performing for. I don't think I've seen a movie yet that sort of addressed that problem and turned it into a story that can be compelling and interesting. Does that answer your question? It sort of does. Yeah.

Like it's just very, we have this new problem, which is like we are haunted by our digital selves and haunted by this sort of generalized other that we're performing for. I don't think I've seen a movie yet that sort of addressed that problem and turned it into a story that can be compelling and interesting. Does that answer your question? It sort of does. Yeah.

I mean, it sounds like you have some work to do, my friend. So get on it. But yeah, you're saying that there could be a hero who embodies the values of authenticity in a world where this digital realm is kind of, I don't know, creating an arena, but also destroying us.

I mean, it sounds like you have some work to do, my friend. So get on it. But yeah, you're saying that there could be a hero who embodies the values of authenticity in a world where this digital realm is kind of, I don't know, creating an arena, but also destroying us.

Yeah. Rebelling. You're just swimming against the tide of like, if everybody's staring at their screen, everybody's obsessed with their digital selves, right? Then you would just want to create a hero swing against that tide and is privileging the world of atoms over the world of bits, basically.

Yeah. Rebelling. You're just swimming against the tide of like, if everybody's staring at their screen, everybody's obsessed with their digital selves, right? Then you would just want to create a hero swing against that tide and is privileging the world of atoms over the world of bits, basically.

Totally, totally. I think that, you know, I went to film school. I got out of film school. I want to be a screenwriter. So I want to get jobs where I could read screenplays. And the thing that people, young people know, I think don't appreciate is how difficult it was to find screenplays. Before the internet, screenplays were really hard to get your hands on.

Totally, totally. I think that, you know, I went to film school. I got out of film school. I want to be a screenwriter. So I want to get jobs where I could read screenplays. And the thing that people, young people know, I think don't appreciate is how difficult it was to find screenplays. Before the internet, screenplays were really hard to get your hands on.

There were vendors in New York that would sell screenplays on the sidewalk because it was just really hard to find screenplays. Now you go on your computer and like every screenplay in the world is available. I got out, I got a job at a production company. Then I moved on and got a job with a producer.

There were vendors in New York that would sell screenplays on the sidewalk because it was just really hard to find screenplays. Now you go on your computer and like every screenplay in the world is available. I got out, I got a job at a production company. Then I moved on and got a job with a producer.

And that producer was working at Columbia Pictures and her job was looking for material for Matthew. So after I moved on from that job, Matthew knew me and hired me to be his assistant. And it was a great job. Matthew's the nicest guy in the world, like best boss in the world. But it was a great job because back then it was really hard to get your hands on screenplays.

And that producer was working at Columbia Pictures and her job was looking for material for Matthew. So after I moved on from that job, Matthew knew me and hired me to be his assistant. And it was a great job. Matthew's the nicest guy in the world, like best boss in the world. But it was a great job because back then it was really hard to get your hands on screenplays.

His agency at CAA would be sending him scripts all the time. So I, and one of my jobs was just to read all the scripts that came in, write coverage on them, recommend whether you should read them or not. And so that was a great experience. Like that was really great. You see what's out there in the marketplace. You see what the agencies are sending out. You see what scripts work or not.

His agency at CAA would be sending him scripts all the time. So I, and one of my jobs was just to read all the scripts that came in, write coverage on them, recommend whether you should read them or not. And so that was a great experience. Like that was really great. You see what's out there in the marketplace. You see what the agencies are sending out. You see what scripts work or not.

You see how actors are responding to a piece of material or not. So it was a very, very humble experience. position to begin with. We all have our humble beginnings. But it was great training because, again, it was really hard back in the 90s to just get access to screenplays. So it was a great job. And Matthew's a total sweetheart.

You see how actors are responding to a piece of material or not. So it was a very, very humble experience. position to begin with. We all have our humble beginnings. But it was great training because, again, it was really hard back in the 90s to just get access to screenplays. So it was a great job. And Matthew's a total sweetheart.

I had been with him when people go, hey, Ferris, is it your day off? You know, that kind of thing. He sort of resigned himself to that's going to happen once a week, once a week for the rest of his life.

I had been with him when people go, hey, Ferris, is it your day off? You know, that kind of thing. He sort of resigned himself to that's going to happen once a week, once a week for the rest of his life.

Yeah, not really. I think I grew up. My dad worked in the Foreign Service. I grew up as a toddler in India. And then when I was 10, 11, 12 years old, we lived in Sri Lanka. Beyond that, we lived in suburban Virginia and no connection. Like the idea that you could make a living making movies was just it never even occurred to me that you could make do that for a living.

Yeah, not really. I think I grew up. My dad worked in the Foreign Service. I grew up as a toddler in India. And then when I was 10, 11, 12 years old, we lived in Sri Lanka. Beyond that, we lived in suburban Virginia and no connection. Like the idea that you could make a living making movies was just it never even occurred to me that you could make do that for a living.

It just happens somewhere else. And my dad loved comedy. He would take us to go see Mel Brooks movies. He would take us to go see every new Woody Allen film together. And I think watching your dad laugh at something is always this very... It's just great when your dad just relax and laughs at something. But I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. It was really, I was in high school.

It just happens somewhere else. And my dad loved comedy. He would take us to go see Mel Brooks movies. He would take us to go see every new Woody Allen film together. And I think watching your dad laugh at something is always this very... It's just great when your dad just relax and laughs at something. But I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. It was really, I was in high school.

I was very unhappy, but I had always kind of loved films. I remember as soon as I found out there's this thing called film school, I was like, well, that's it. That's what I'm going to do. That created the ladder or at least the bottom rung of a ladder that I could put my hand on and start climbing. So as soon as I found out there's a thing as film school, I was like, that's what I want to do.

I was very unhappy, but I had always kind of loved films. I remember as soon as I found out there's this thing called film school, I was like, well, that's it. That's what I'm going to do. That created the ladder or at least the bottom rung of a ladder that I could put my hand on and start climbing. So as soon as I found out there's a thing as film school, I was like, that's what I want to do.

You know, it's funny that the thing that I really fell in love with with movies was I remember the moment it was when my whole family went and saw Apocalypse Now when it was first released. And I remember that opening scene where you do a triple exposure of like the jungle panning across the jungle, Martin Sheen's face upside down and the ceiling fan going and that music from the doors is playing.

You know, it's funny that the thing that I really fell in love with with movies was I remember the moment it was when my whole family went and saw Apocalypse Now when it was first released. And I remember that opening scene where you do a triple exposure of like the jungle panning across the jungle, Martin Sheen's face upside down and the ceiling fan going and that music from the doors is playing.

And I was a kid. I was like 14, 15 years old. I'd never seen movies do something like that, you know? And it was so lyrical and so beautiful. I was like, oh my God, this is art. Like, this is art. I had been raised on multiplex fare, right? And when I saw that, and that whole movie just blew my mind. That's just like still one of my favorite movies. That's when I fell in love with movies.

And I was a kid. I was like 14, 15 years old. I'd never seen movies do something like that, you know? And it was so lyrical and so beautiful. I was like, oh my God, this is art. Like, this is art. I had been raised on multiplex fare, right? And when I saw that, and that whole movie just blew my mind. That's just like still one of my favorite movies. That's when I fell in love with movies.

Totally. Like, I think that, you know, I'm doing a new thing about first acts, how to write a good first act, how to get your story started off with as much sort of emotional rooting interest as possible, how to kick things off.

Totally. Like, I think that, you know, I'm doing a new thing about first acts, how to write a good first act, how to get your story started off with as much sort of emotional rooting interest as possible, how to kick things off.

And I really fell in love with the poetry of movies, the visual, the cinema of movies. And I think it's a little ironic that I... have ended up being this sort of story guy. Because when I started out, I kind of didn't care about story. I wanted, I love beautiful, the Black Stallion, like these lyrical art films.

And I really fell in love with the poetry of movies, the visual, the cinema of movies. And I think it's a little ironic that I... have ended up being this sort of story guy. Because when I started out, I kind of didn't care about story. I wanted, I love beautiful, the Black Stallion, like these lyrical art films.

But just like my first job out of film school was reading scripts and writing coverage on scripts. That's how your brain gets trained, I guess. How many scripts do you think you read in your career? About a thousand. I think about a thousand. I think I wrote about a thousand. Yeah. Wow. You know, most of them don't work.

But just like my first job out of film school was reading scripts and writing coverage on scripts. That's how your brain gets trained, I guess. How many scripts do you think you read in your career? About a thousand. I think about a thousand. I think I wrote about a thousand. Yeah. Wow. You know, most of them don't work.

I think that, I mean, it does get very soul crushing to read one screenplay after another. People have devoted six months a year of their life to writing this and it's just going to get read once and then get put on a shelf. And there's almost no field of human endeavor fraught with more disappointment and failure. than screenwriting.

I think that, I mean, it does get very soul crushing to read one screenplay after another. People have devoted six months a year of their life to writing this and it's just going to get read once and then get put on a shelf. And there's almost no field of human endeavor fraught with more disappointment and failure. than screenwriting.

And so, you know, when I started writing my own scripts, I was really determined that that wasn't going to happen to me. And I think that that's why I came up with this very rigorous sort of analytical approach to story. I mean, there's two sides of storytelling. You want to start, anytime you start writing, you're starting with the sort of intuitive, emotional side of your brain, right?

And so, you know, when I started writing my own scripts, I was really determined that that wasn't going to happen to me. And I think that that's why I came up with this very rigorous sort of analytical approach to story. I mean, there's two sides of storytelling. You want to start, anytime you start writing, you're starting with the sort of intuitive, emotional side of your brain, right?

You're always connecting with something that's very very instinctive, right? But as you go through five drafts, 10 drafts, 15, 20 drafts of your story, you're going to make this transition from the quick thinking, fast, intuitive, emotional part of your brain to the sort of more analytical part of your brain.

You're always connecting with something that's very very instinctive, right? But as you go through five drafts, 10 drafts, 15, 20 drafts of your story, you're going to make this transition from the quick thinking, fast, intuitive, emotional part of your brain to the sort of more analytical part of your brain.

So I think that, I mean, my training, reading a thousand scripts taught me, yes, you need great dialogue and you need great jokes and you need all the stuff that comes from your instincts, basically.

So I think that, I mean, my training, reading a thousand scripts taught me, yes, you need great dialogue and you need great jokes and you need all the stuff that comes from your instincts, basically.

I'll just say I had a script that I wrote years and years ago and I sort of did three drafts and then it sort of petered out because I always knew the first act wasn't doing the work that it needed to do. I gave it to people and people were like, I'm not really into this character. And it was a really short first act. First act was like 17 pages.

I'll just say I had a script that I wrote years and years ago and I sort of did three drafts and then it sort of petered out because I always knew the first act wasn't doing the work that it needed to do. I gave it to people and people were like, I'm not really into this character. And it was a really short first act. First act was like 17 pages.

But I also feel like you can use the other part of your brain to sit down, put a story up on blocks, sort of x-ray it, you know, in formal terms and going, why is this script working or why is it not working?

But I also feel like you can use the other part of your brain to sit down, put a story up on blocks, sort of x-ray it, you know, in formal terms and going, why is this script working or why is it not working?

Right, because you said it's much easier to get your script read. And I was surprised to read you an interview where you said it's much easier even to get your script made into a movie than it is to write a really good script. Oh my God. So 99% of your effort, you said, should go into writing... A good script. You wrote, what, 10 screenplays before you sold Little Miss Sunshine?

Right, because you said it's much easier to get your script read. And I was surprised to read you an interview where you said it's much easier even to get your script made into a movie than it is to write a really good script. Oh my God. So 99% of your effort, you said, should go into writing... A good script. You wrote, what, 10 screenplays before you sold Little Miss Sunshine?

And my understanding is that from the time you seriously decided to be a writer till you sold your first screenplay, it was like a decade, right? It was like 10 years. What kept you going during that time? And why does it take so long to become a really good screenwriter?

And my understanding is that from the time you seriously decided to be a writer till you sold your first screenplay, it was like a decade, right? It was like 10 years. What kept you going during that time? And why does it take so long to become a really good screenwriter?

So delusional optimism was the thing that sort of kept me going. I think that the one thing that kept me going was that I was told in film school that if you want to be a writer, if you want to break in, it's going to take 10 years. And of course, I thought, oh, I'm smarter than everyone. It'll only take me five years, you know, but it almost- Yeah, that sounds familiar.

So delusional optimism was the thing that sort of kept me going. I think that the one thing that kept me going was that I was told in film school that if you want to be a writer, if you want to break in, it's going to take 10 years. And of course, I thought, oh, I'm smarter than everyone. It'll only take me five years, you know, but it almost- Yeah, that sounds familiar.

And then also I got to enjoy the process of writing. Like I got to enjoy it. Like there is an exhilaration to come up with an idea going, oh, this is going to be really great. I will say that I had written 10 screenplays. Nothing had happened with any of them. None of them were especially great. Although I had written a little bit of Sunshine at that point, I just hadn't quite finished it.

And then also I got to enjoy the process of writing. Like I got to enjoy it. Like there is an exhilaration to come up with an idea going, oh, this is going to be really great. I will say that I had written 10 screenplays. Nothing had happened with any of them. None of them were especially great. Although I had written a little bit of Sunshine at that point, I just hadn't quite finished it.

And I was sitting down to write screenplay number 11. And I was in my 30s at this point. And I was just like, what am I doing with my life? Is there something else that I can do with my life? Because this isn't working out. And the one thing I'll pat myself on the back for is that I just kept going. I sat down. I thought about it. I was like, you know, I love movies.

And I was sitting down to write screenplay number 11. And I was in my 30s at this point. And I was just like, what am I doing with my life? Is there something else that I can do with my life? Because this isn't working out. And the one thing I'll pat myself on the back for is that I just kept going. I sat down. I thought about it. I was like, you know, I love movies.

I love being part of the community of movies. And I just want to be part of that, however it is. It was about six months later that I finally sold Ole Miss Sunshine. Wow. Wow. It's hard, right?

I love being part of the community of movies. And I just want to be part of that, however it is. It was about six months later that I finally sold Ole Miss Sunshine. Wow. Wow. It's hard, right?

So I just put that script aside and then in the process of doing this video about... first acts, like I go, oh, now I know what's missing. And I went back and I rewrote the whole first act of that story. Now it works.

So I just put that script aside and then in the process of doing this video about... first acts, like I go, oh, now I know what's missing. And I went back and I rewrote the whole first act of that story. Now it works.

You think Gwyneth goes to Target? I don't think so.

You think Gwyneth goes to Target? I don't think so.

I thought a lot about this because I feel like when you are a young person, what you're, one of the things you're choosing is you're choosing to enter a field and that field is going to represent your values, right? So if you want to be a Marine, you go off and join the Marines, right? And you go from being a civilian, you become a Marine, right? Or if you want to be a Buddhist monk, right?

I thought a lot about this because I feel like when you are a young person, what you're, one of the things you're choosing is you're choosing to enter a field and that field is going to represent your values, right? So if you want to be a Marine, you go off and join the Marines, right? And you go from being a civilian, you become a Marine, right? Or if you want to be a Buddhist monk, right?

You go off and join a monastery. That institutional monastery is going to change you into the sort of the ideal of Buddhism, like, or the ideal of being a Marine or the ideal of whatever, right? And so when I chose to be a screenwriter, it's not just that you're trying to get movies made and make money and be a success, you're also just joining a community.

You go off and join a monastery. That institutional monastery is going to change you into the sort of the ideal of Buddhism, like, or the ideal of being a Marine or the ideal of whatever, right? And so when I chose to be a screenwriter, it's not just that you're trying to get movies made and make money and be a success, you're also just joining a community.

And you're finding people who share your values, share your interests. I think that if I hadn't ended up being a screenwriter, I would have been a development executive, I would have been a producer, I would have been something else, maybe a, I don't know, work as an editor or something like that. I would have done something just because I love filmmaking so much.

And you're finding people who share your values, share your interests. I think that if I hadn't ended up being a screenwriter, I would have been a development executive, I would have been a producer, I would have been something else, maybe a, I don't know, work as an editor or something like that. I would have done something just because I love filmmaking so much.

Yeah, I feel like I've been very, very lucky. And I think you have to acknowledge that luck plays an enormous role in whether you're able to break through or not. So, I mean, I was very persistent. I worked for 10 years. I failed a lot, you know, 10 years of failure and disappointment. But I also felt like I was very...

Yeah, I feel like I've been very, very lucky. And I think you have to acknowledge that luck plays an enormous role in whether you're able to break through or not. So, I mean, I was very persistent. I worked for 10 years. I failed a lot, you know, 10 years of failure and disappointment. But I also felt like I was very...

deliberate in doing due diligence on all my screenplays and trying to figure out like, does this work or not? And, you know, I wrote a hundred drafts of Little Miss Sunshine, like trying to get it to a point where it was going to work massive and overwhelming force. Like there was no way you can say no to the screenplay. So it's a big risk.

deliberate in doing due diligence on all my screenplays and trying to figure out like, does this work or not? And, you know, I wrote a hundred drafts of Little Miss Sunshine, like trying to get it to a point where it was going to work massive and overwhelming force. Like there was no way you can say no to the screenplay. So it's a big risk.

You kind of jump off a cliff, but I also feel like I did it in a very methodical or kind of cautious way. I feel like no one's going to be helped by putting another mediocre screenplay out in the world. And you've got to be hard on yourself. You've got to be hard on your own material. You've got to let it be judged by other people. And you've got to accept their judgments, right?

You kind of jump off a cliff, but I also feel like I did it in a very methodical or kind of cautious way. I feel like no one's going to be helped by putting another mediocre screenplay out in the world. And you've got to be hard on yourself. You've got to be hard on your own material. You've got to let it be judged by other people. And you've got to accept their judgments, right?

Like, I don't know if I'm ever going to go back to that script because it was so long ago, but it is interesting how just studying, studying, studying storytelling and story, you know, it's very humbling and it always makes you a little bit better. There's always more stuff to learn, always more stuff to learn.

Like, I don't know if I'm ever going to go back to that script because it was so long ago, but it is interesting how just studying, studying, studying storytelling and story, you know, it's very humbling and it always makes you a little bit better. There's always more stuff to learn, always more stuff to learn.

Because if 9 out of 10 people don't like your screenplay, it's a pretty good bet that 9 out of 10 people are not going to like your movie.

Because if 9 out of 10 people don't like your screenplay, it's a pretty good bet that 9 out of 10 people are not going to like your movie.

You don't support me. I feel like screenwriting requires almost... a degree of masochism. It still doesn't work. It still doesn't work. Everyone goes, oh, it's great. It's fine. Send the script out. You go, no, no, you're all lying to me. Tell me what still doesn't work. You've got to really, really kick the tires on your story and you've got to be hard on yourself.

You don't support me. I feel like screenwriting requires almost... a degree of masochism. It still doesn't work. It still doesn't work. Everyone goes, oh, it's great. It's fine. Send the script out. You go, no, no, you're all lying to me. Tell me what still doesn't work. You've got to really, really kick the tires on your story and you've got to be hard on yourself.

You're hard on yourself so it makes everyone else's job easier. It's going to make the actor's job easier, the director's job easier. The harder you are on yourself, the better your screenplay is, the easier everyone else's job is going to be. And so you've got to... Just kick the tires on your story. People can be peevish, like people can be assholes about your story, right?

You're hard on yourself so it makes everyone else's job easier. It's going to make the actor's job easier, the director's job easier. The harder you are on yourself, the better your screenplay is, the easier everyone else's job is going to be. And so you've got to... Just kick the tires on your story. People can be peevish, like people can be assholes about your story, right?

But you've got to suck it up. Like those are the people who are going to be sitting in your audience. Billy Wilder had a great quote where he was talking about the audience and he said, individually, they're idiots, but collectively, they're a genius. And I think that you have to respect the genius of your audience, right? Your audience is smarter than you.

But you've got to suck it up. Like those are the people who are going to be sitting in your audience. Billy Wilder had a great quote where he was talking about the audience and he said, individually, they're idiots, but collectively, they're a genius. And I think that you have to respect the genius of your audience, right? Your audience is smarter than you.

And so you have to be humble and you have to listen to the feedback you're getting. That's what Pixar really taught me was being at Pixar and the big feedback mechanism they have there.

And so you have to be humble and you have to listen to the feedback you're getting. That's what Pixar really taught me was being at Pixar and the big feedback mechanism they have there.

Gotta keep taking it.

Gotta keep taking it.

There's a certain point where you just recognize you're not going to make everybody happy. Well, that's for sure. Yeah. There's just a certain point where you're just like, fuck it. This is a script I want to see. Or I think this joke is funny. I don't care. I'm putting it in there. Like, I think it's funny. There's a certain point where you just have to, you can't please everybody.

There's a certain point where you just recognize you're not going to make everybody happy. Well, that's for sure. Yeah. There's just a certain point where you're just like, fuck it. This is a script I want to see. Or I think this joke is funny. I don't care. I'm putting it in there. Like, I think it's funny. There's a certain point where you just have to, you can't please everybody.

If you try, you'd never make a movie, right? There's a certain moment of madness where you just have to jump off the cliff and go, okay, we're doing this. Or I'm sending the script out or whatever it is.

If you try, you'd never make a movie, right? There's a certain moment of madness where you just have to jump off the cliff and go, okay, we're doing this. Or I'm sending the script out or whatever it is.

Well, I would say that script is probably like eight or nine in line in terms of like things that I want to make. So, you know what? Actually, I won't say it's probably fifth or sixth.

Well, I would say that script is probably like eight or nine in line in terms of like things that I want to make. So, you know what? Actually, I won't say it's probably fifth or sixth.

It was completely out of the blue. I had written the script for Little Miss Sunshine. It was being shot actually in the summer of 2005. So the movie hadn't been released yet. They hadn't even finished shooting it yet. And Pixar had gotten their hands on a copy of the script and they read it and they really liked it. And they brought me up and interviewed me.

It was completely out of the blue. I had written the script for Little Miss Sunshine. It was being shot actually in the summer of 2005. So the movie hadn't been released yet. They hadn't even finished shooting it yet. And Pixar had gotten their hands on a copy of the script and they read it and they really liked it. And they brought me up and interviewed me.

And they were looking for someone to work with the director, Lee Unkrich, on an original idea that he had. And so I met with Lee at sort of three interviews. I made it over the bar kind of each time. And they hired me. And then that was right before the merger with Disney happened. So when the Disney merger happened, that was when they sort of asked Lee to take over Toy Story 3 and do it.

And they were looking for someone to work with the director, Lee Unkrich, on an original idea that he had. And so I met with Lee at sort of three interviews. I made it over the bar kind of each time. And they hired me. And then that was right before the merger with Disney happened. So when the Disney merger happened, that was when they sort of asked Lee to take over Toy Story 3 and do it.

And my joke is that they all go into a meeting and they're like, okay, this is it. We're going to make Toy Story 3. And then at the end of the meeting, they're like, wait a minute, we need somebody to write it. Uh, you. Yeah. What is it you do again over here? Projects assistant, get over here. You're writing the script.

And my joke is that they all go into a meeting and they're like, okay, this is it. We're going to make Toy Story 3. And then at the end of the meeting, they're like, wait a minute, we need somebody to write it. Uh, you. Yeah. What is it you do again over here? Projects assistant, get over here. You're writing the script.

Target bags in hand.

Target bags in hand.

Exactly. The guy standing in the hallway was like, we need some poor schmuck to write this thing. How about you? Yeah, like, I just got to drop off this milk. I'll be right back. Yeah, so I feel like I was really lucky to be at Pixar from Ratatouille to Toy Story 3. It was Ratatouille, WALL-E, up, and then Toy Story 3, and then I worked on Inside Out while Toy Story 3 was still being finished.

Exactly. The guy standing in the hallway was like, we need some poor schmuck to write this thing. How about you? Yeah, like, I just got to drop off this milk. I'll be right back. Yeah, so I feel like I was really lucky to be at Pixar from Ratatouille to Toy Story 3. It was Ratatouille, WALL-E, up, and then Toy Story 3, and then I worked on Inside Out while Toy Story 3 was still being finished.

I mean, it's just a great, great experience. They really had this great... collaborative culture. I was credited with writing Toy Story 3, but it was really co-writers were Andrew Stan, Leon Critch, and John Lasseter, and then about 20 other people that were all helping to get that script to where it was. So it was probably 10 people for three years working full-time on that script.

I mean, it's just a great, great experience. They really had this great... collaborative culture. I was credited with writing Toy Story 3, but it was really co-writers were Andrew Stan, Leon Critch, and John Lasseter, and then about 20 other people that were all helping to get that script to where it was. So it was probably 10 people for three years working full-time on that script.

So 10 man years of labor for a 93-minute movie.

So 10 man years of labor for a 93-minute movie.

Yeah. You call it collaborative. It sounds collaborative and loving. And it also sounds absolutely brutal and unforgiving because with that many great storytellers in the room, it sounds like everybody is putting every story element under the microscope and pushing it to the best possible version, which would explain why Pixar movies are so good.

Yeah. You call it collaborative. It sounds collaborative and loving. And it also sounds absolutely brutal and unforgiving because with that many great storytellers in the room, it sounds like everybody is putting every story element under the microscope and pushing it to the best possible version, which would explain why Pixar movies are so good.

But what is it like to be a creative in that environment? It's...

But what is it like to be a creative in that environment? It's...

My job is that it's the greatest job in the world, except for the soul crushing anxiety that comes along with it. Because I remember I had been hired to do a Toy Story three. And after like six months, I was like, Hey, I wonder what the Rotten Tomatoes score for the first Toy Story movie is. So I go look it up. It's like a hundred percent. No pressure.

My job is that it's the greatest job in the world, except for the soul crushing anxiety that comes along with it. Because I remember I had been hired to do a Toy Story three. And after like six months, I was like, Hey, I wonder what the Rotten Tomatoes score for the first Toy Story movie is. So I go look it up. It's like a hundred percent. No pressure.

And I was like, well, I wonder what the Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah. What's Rotten Tomatoes for Toy Story two. And it was a hundred percent, you know? So it's just like, okay, you got your work cut out for you. Also leading up to that, Ratatouille, Wall-E, and Up had all been nominated for Best Screenplay, and then Up had been nominated for Best Picture.

And I was like, well, I wonder what the Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah. What's Rotten Tomatoes for Toy Story two. And it was a hundred percent, you know? So it's just like, okay, you got your work cut out for you. Also leading up to that, Ratatouille, Wall-E, and Up had all been nominated for Best Screenplay, and then Up had been nominated for Best Picture.

No big deal.

No big deal.

Well, and if you don't freaking get an Oscar nomination for your screenplay, you're like, what a loser. The last three guys got a nomination. What's your problem? This one was in the bag, pal. How did you blow this?

Well, and if you don't freaking get an Oscar nomination for your screenplay, you're like, what a loser. The last three guys got a nomination. What's your problem? This one was in the bag, pal. How did you blow this?

The pressure. The pressure.

The pressure. The pressure.

Yeah. How do you blow it? Listen, man, it was so much anxiety and stress for like three years. I felt like, cause it was also building on the first two movies. Like, and so I felt like I was the guy, they sent the wide receiver down to the end zone and they threw this like hail Mary. And I'm sitting there in the end zone going, please don't drop this. Please don't drop this. You know, like, right.

Yeah. How do you blow it? Listen, man, it was so much anxiety and stress for like three years. I felt like, cause it was also building on the first two movies. Like, and so I felt like I was the guy, they sent the wide receiver down to the end zone and they threw this like hail Mary. And I'm sitting there in the end zone going, please don't drop this. Please don't drop this. You know, like, right.

Oh my God. The other thing was that like, we were figuring out the story as we went along. Like, it wasn't like we had this super clear idea right from the start. I mean, we had a beginning, a middle and an end, but there were tons of adjustments that that were made along the way. It's like having a story problem that you can't solve yet.

Oh my God. The other thing was that like, we were figuring out the story as we went along. Like, it wasn't like we had this super clear idea right from the start. I mean, we had a beginning, a middle and an end, but there were tons of adjustments that that were made along the way. It's like having a story problem that you can't solve yet.

You know, the script is not working, but you don't know how to fix it. It's like having this itch that you can't scratch. It's just, it can be really, really, really, really agonizing, but also like totally exhilarating.

You know, the script is not working, but you don't know how to fix it. It's like having this itch that you can't scratch. It's just, it can be really, really, really, really agonizing, but also like totally exhilarating.

Like some of the best, happiest moments of my life were in those Pixar story meetings where you have like 10 smart people in a room and like the ideas are clicking along and it just like is really, really exhilarating. I feel very, very lucky I was there when I was.

Like some of the best, happiest moments of my life were in those Pixar story meetings where you have like 10 smart people in a room and like the ideas are clicking along and it just like is really, really exhilarating. I feel very, very lucky I was there when I was.

Yeah. I mean, I'm at the point where I have more scripts than I'm going to have time to make into movies. And it's helpful. I was just saying, working as a script doctor, I went out and they gave me the script and I read it. And I was like, oh, based on the fact that I've been obsessing about first acts for the last couple of months, I know exactly how to fix a script.

Yeah. I mean, I'm at the point where I have more scripts than I'm going to have time to make into movies. And it's helpful. I was just saying, working as a script doctor, I went out and they gave me the script and I read it. And I was like, oh, based on the fact that I've been obsessing about first acts for the last couple of months, I know exactly how to fix a script.

So torturous but exquisite in certain moments, it sounds like.

So torturous but exquisite in certain moments, it sounds like.

I'm quitting the business.

I'm quitting the business.

They asked me, do you want to write Toy Story 4? I was like, I feel like I just put on a blindfold and ran across a freeway and I didn't get killed. And now you're going, do you want to do it again? I was like, you know what? I didn't want to time.

They asked me, do you want to write Toy Story 4? I was like, I feel like I just put on a blindfold and ran across a freeway and I didn't get killed. And now you're going, do you want to do it again? I was like, you know what? I didn't want to time.

No, thanks. Where's the nearest target, sir? Take me there. But look, I mean, these are some of the most beloved franchises in history, Toy Story, Star Wars. I mean, I have to imagine the pressure you described is stressing me out. I didn't even have to do it.

No, thanks. Where's the nearest target, sir? Take me there. But look, I mean, these are some of the most beloved franchises in history, Toy Story, Star Wars. I mean, I have to imagine the pressure you described is stressing me out. I didn't even have to do it.

But also you're trying to honor the history of those movies by, I imagine, offering something new and unexpected while you also take into account those audience expectations you talked about. Do you think a lot about nostalgia and honoring the past while you're pushing things forward? Is it intense to deal with the expectations of these super diehard fans?

But also you're trying to honor the history of those movies by, I imagine, offering something new and unexpected while you also take into account those audience expectations you talked about. Do you think a lot about nostalgia and honoring the past while you're pushing things forward? Is it intense to deal with the expectations of these super diehard fans?

It's funny. It's very important to have fidelity to the universe that you're setting up and to those characters, right? And I remember every once in a while when I started working on Toy Story 3, someone would say like, oh, that doesn't sound like Woody. Woody would never say that.

It's funny. It's very important to have fidelity to the universe that you're setting up and to those characters, right? And I remember every once in a while when I started working on Toy Story 3, someone would say like, oh, that doesn't sound like Woody. Woody would never say that.

I mean, there's big guardrails on the story, but I think that the danger on something like Toy Story 3 is you're going to resort to sort of cute blandness, or you're going to be sort of repeating yourself a little bit. And I remember my resolution was that I want the script to be funny, not just sort of chuckle, chuckle funny, but really funny. And I want it to be weird also. I want there to be

I mean, there's big guardrails on the story, but I think that the danger on something like Toy Story 3 is you're going to resort to sort of cute blandness, or you're going to be sort of repeating yourself a little bit. And I remember my resolution was that I want the script to be funny, not just sort of chuckle, chuckle funny, but really funny. And I want it to be weird also. I want there to be

sort of unexpected, strange things that make sense within the logic of a toy universe, right? But that you would never think of yourself. So like, you got Lotso as the bad guy, Big Baby as the heavy, who's his enforcer. And you're trying to elaborate on what's come before, but remain consistent.

sort of unexpected, strange things that make sense within the logic of a toy universe, right? But that you would never think of yourself. So like, you got Lotso as the bad guy, Big Baby as the heavy, who's his enforcer. And you're trying to elaborate on what's come before, but remain consistent.

I think that it's just a balance that you're always trying to walk to remain true to the spirit of the original stuff and still expand on the universe and the characters.

I think that it's just a balance that you're always trying to walk to remain true to the spirit of the original stuff and still expand on the universe and the characters.

Yeah, it's... Thanks for asking. It's kind of a stupid thing, but I remember I... Man, I worked on Little Miss Sunshine for like four years to get that movie made. Major investment in my life. I wrote 100 drafts of that script. For Toy Story 3, I worked on that script for three years and was very happy that got my name on the movie and it came out.

Yeah, it's... Thanks for asking. It's kind of a stupid thing, but I remember I... Man, I worked on Little Miss Sunshine for like four years to get that movie made. Major investment in my life. I wrote 100 drafts of that script. For Toy Story 3, I worked on that script for three years and was very happy that got my name on the movie and it came out.

And then this was at the beginning of my script doctoring career. I was hired to work on the film Oblivion as a script doctor. I went and I did two weeks of work, just not expecting to get credit at all. What I did was I changed it from... The opening and the ending, the script I got made it out to be a war movie. It was like an alien invasion. We fought back against them, blah, blah, blah.

And then this was at the beginning of my script doctoring career. I was hired to work on the film Oblivion as a script doctor. I went and I did two weeks of work, just not expecting to get credit at all. What I did was I changed it from... The opening and the ending, the script I got made it out to be a war movie. It was like an alien invasion. We fought back against them, blah, blah, blah.

And when they sent me the script, I was like, this is actually a love story. This is about a guy who's haunted by dreams of a woman that he's never met. So I rewrote the beginning. I rewrote the ending. And that changed the nature of the movie from being kind of just this war movie to being a love story.

And when they sent me the script, I was like, this is actually a love story. This is about a guy who's haunted by dreams of a woman that he's never met. So I rewrote the beginning. I rewrote the ending. And that changed the nature of the movie from being kind of just this war movie to being a love story.

And very surprisingly, because I only worked on that script for two weeks, the studio elected to give me credit on it. And I was just like, man, these are my characters. This isn't my story. I only worked on this thing for two weeks. It just is a different kind of writing. Little Miss Sunshine came out of me. It came out of my personal experience. It's an expression of who I am.

And very surprisingly, because I only worked on that script for two weeks, the studio elected to give me credit on it. And I was just like, man, these are my characters. This isn't my story. I only worked on this thing for two weeks. It just is a different kind of writing. Little Miss Sunshine came out of me. It came out of my personal experience. It's an expression of who I am.

And I worked on it for four years, right? And then with Oblivion, I'm just coming in to somebody else's script. I'm making little adjustments here and there. It just felt like two completely different kinds of writing. And so I thought, I'll just use a pseudonym for stuff that I'm doing.

And I worked on it for four years, right? And then with Oblivion, I'm just coming in to somebody else's script. I'm making little adjustments here and there. It just felt like two completely different kinds of writing. And so I thought, I'll just use a pseudonym for stuff that I'm doing.

If I'm not hired to do the full screenplay, if I'm only coming in and making adjustments to someone else's work, I just want to make a distinction between the writing I do as sort of an artist and the writing I do as sort of a craftsman, maybe.

If I'm not hired to do the full screenplay, if I'm only coming in and making adjustments to someone else's work, I just want to make a distinction between the writing I do as sort of an artist and the writing I do as sort of a craftsman, maybe.

You know, there have been scripts, a couple of scripts. I mean, Star Wars was one of them where I was given first position in the credits. You know, when they arbitrate what the credits look like, whoever contributed the most should be in first position in the credits. And I was offered first position in The Force Awakens.

You know, there have been scripts, a couple of scripts. I mean, Star Wars was one of them where I was given first position in the credits. You know, when they arbitrate what the credits look like, whoever contributed the most should be in first position in the credits. And I was offered first position in The Force Awakens.

I think that that final screenplay has maybe like three lines of dialogue that I wrote and the rest was rewritten by Larry and JJ. So, I mean, I think that the whole structure that we came up with is, I mean, again, like the studio decided I had contributed more to the final script than Larry and JJ, but I thought, you know, it doesn't feel like it's my story. Like, it's really theirs.

I think that that final screenplay has maybe like three lines of dialogue that I wrote and the rest was rewritten by Larry and JJ. So, I mean, I think that the whole structure that we came up with is, I mean, again, like the studio decided I had contributed more to the final script than Larry and JJ, but I thought, you know, it doesn't feel like it's my story. Like, it's really theirs.

It's their characters. It's all their dialogue. So I elected just to step back and take second position in the credits. They probably appreciated that, I would say, right? Because they probably agreed with you, I would assume, right? Yeah, I feel like I was being a credit hog to try and be in first position when the sensibility that's reflected in the final film is more.

It's their characters. It's all their dialogue. So I elected just to step back and take second position in the credits. They probably appreciated that, I would say, right? Because they probably agreed with you, I would assume, right? Yeah, I feel like I was being a credit hog to try and be in first position when the sensibility that's reflected in the final film is more.

I mean, the story was what we all came up with together, but the sensibility reflected in the final movie is more Larry HHA than it is me.

I mean, the story was what we all came up with together, but the sensibility reflected in the final movie is more Larry HHA than it is me.

It's a very sensitive subject, so I'm treading carefully here. I think that within the spectrum of optimism and pessimism... We'll use AI to make you sound better. So whatever you say now, we'll just redo it with AI. Don't worry. Good, good, good. Good, good, good. I think as a screenwriter, you kind of have to be an optimist. Here's an argument that I'll make.

It's a very sensitive subject, so I'm treading carefully here. I think that within the spectrum of optimism and pessimism... We'll use AI to make you sound better. So whatever you say now, we'll just redo it with AI. Don't worry. Good, good, good. Good, good, good. I think as a screenwriter, you kind of have to be an optimist. Here's an argument that I'll make.

And this may turn out to be not to be the case. And this may turn out to... I could be completely wrong. But I think one of the arguments that you could make is that I had a meeting with a guy who was running a generative AI company. And he said, like, production costs are going to come down like 90%, 95%. Wow. And I was just like, oh, you mean like in 10 years? He's like, no, in like two years.

And this may turn out to be not to be the case. And this may turn out to... I could be completely wrong. But I think one of the arguments that you could make is that I had a meeting with a guy who was running a generative AI company. And he said, like, production costs are going to come down like 90%, 95%. Wow. And I was just like, oh, you mean like in 10 years? He's like, no, in like two years.

And I don't know if that's true, but I think that... There's a lot of screenplays, including a few of my own, that don't get made because the budget doesn't make sense. I had a script about two years ago that made it up to the top of the decision ladder at a studio and I wanted to direct it. And they said to me, we would make this movie if it costs half of what the budget is.

And I don't know if that's true, but I think that... There's a lot of screenplays, including a few of my own, that don't get made because the budget doesn't make sense. I had a script about two years ago that made it up to the top of the decision ladder at a studio and I wanted to direct it. And they said to me, we would make this movie if it costs half of what the budget is.

Yeah, I think that writers tend to be kind of seen as disposable. You know, you can bring different writers in that have different strengths for things. After I wrote Little Miss Sunshine and then especially after Toy Story 3, I was working at Pixar and Disney Theater Animation was bringing scripts up to Pixar and screening them.

Yeah, I think that writers tend to be kind of seen as disposable. You know, you can bring different writers in that have different strengths for things. After I wrote Little Miss Sunshine and then especially after Toy Story 3, I was working at Pixar and Disney Theater Animation was bringing scripts up to Pixar and screening them.

I wrote this comedy. It's very dark, very spiky comedy. It's like the darkest comedy of all time. And they were like, we love the script and we want to make it, but it's just too expensive. We can't justify it. If AI can cut the cost of making movies, just even by 50%, right, it's going to allow a lot more movies to be made.

I wrote this comedy. It's very dark, very spiky comedy. It's like the darkest comedy of all time. And they were like, we love the script and we want to make it, but it's just too expensive. We can't justify it. If AI can cut the cost of making movies, just even by 50%, right, it's going to allow a lot more movies to be made.

And I think it's going to allow sort of fresh voices, sort of spikier or stranger stories to get made. I think it's going to... give writers actually, I'm hoping, more control. So I think that in the optimism and pessimism debate, I totally realize that there's a dystopian alternative, right?

And I think it's going to allow sort of fresh voices, sort of spikier or stranger stories to get made. I think it's going to... give writers actually, I'm hoping, more control. So I think that in the optimism and pessimism debate, I totally realize that there's a dystopian alternative, right?

There's a way in which like Amazon and Apple and whoever else just start cranking out the McDonald's of storytelling and you're just getting bland, homogenous product. Yeah. You could argue that we're kind of already at that place. Like we're already seeing a lot of superhero movies, stuff that's not super adventurous.

There's a way in which like Amazon and Apple and whoever else just start cranking out the McDonald's of storytelling and you're just getting bland, homogenous product. Yeah. You could argue that we're kind of already at that place. Like we're already seeing a lot of superhero movies, stuff that's not super adventurous.

I think that if AI is actually going to fulfill the promise of bringing down costs, to me, what that hopefully promises is that it's going to lessen the importance of the money people, the gatekeepers, the people who are providing the money, and it's going to empower the creative people, right?

I think that if AI is actually going to fulfill the promise of bringing down costs, to me, what that hopefully promises is that it's going to lessen the importance of the money people, the gatekeepers, the people who are providing the money, and it's going to empower the creative people, right?

If films become much, much cheaper, it's just going to take away power from the money people and give more power to the creative people.

If films become much, much cheaper, it's just going to take away power from the money people and give more power to the creative people.

Here's the most optimistic take, right? Which is I have a, let's say a science fiction film. In the current climate, it would never get made because it's a big science fiction film that costs $100, $150 million. Right. If I can use AI to make that film for a fraction of that, there was a story about a guy, I won't say his name, but he made an independent film, cost $200,000.

Here's the most optimistic take, right? Which is I have a, let's say a science fiction film. In the current climate, it would never get made because it's a big science fiction film that costs $100, $150 million. Right. If I can use AI to make that film for a fraction of that, there was a story about a guy, I won't say his name, but he made an independent film, cost $200,000.

He just invested his own money into it. It was a big hit, made $100 million worldwide. And he, as a director who owned the copyright, owned the negative, made $40 million worldwide. And I think that there is an opportunity, again, like if AI can bring down costs, again, I recognize this is the optimistic scenario. It may not work out this way.

He just invested his own money into it. It was a big hit, made $100 million worldwide. And he, as a director who owned the copyright, owned the negative, made $40 million worldwide. And I think that there is an opportunity, again, like if AI can bring down costs, again, I recognize this is the optimistic scenario. It may not work out this way.

And also some Disney live action films were being brought up to Pixar. And they would screen the films and then we'd have a big story meeting and we'd talk and I was very vocal. I have lots of opinions about how stories should be told. So based on that, I started getting hired to come in and do a week or two of work on a script.

And also some Disney live action films were being brought up to Pixar. And they would screen the films and then we'd have a big story meeting and we'd talk and I was very vocal. I have lots of opinions about how stories should be told. So based on that, I started getting hired to come in and do a week or two of work on a script.

To me, the holy grail is having writers and directors be empowered enough that they can make their own movies and own the copyright, right, and control it. And so we're not renting our talent out to these giant corporations that control the purse strings, right? If AI can bring costs down enough, it's going to, A, let a thousand flowers bloom. It'll be a lot easier to get movies made.

To me, the holy grail is having writers and directors be empowered enough that they can make their own movies and own the copyright, right, and control it. And so we're not renting our talent out to these giant corporations that control the purse strings, right? If AI can bring costs down enough, it's going to, A, let a thousand flowers bloom. It'll be a lot easier to get movies made.

And yes, there'll be a lot of mediocrity. There'll be a lot of stuff, like movies that shouldn't have gotten made and just got made because it was possible to get them made. But I think it's going to allow for, again, sort of spikier, odder, stranger stories to be told or movies to be made. And I think that...

And yes, there'll be a lot of mediocrity. There'll be a lot of stuff, like movies that shouldn't have gotten made and just got made because it was possible to get them made. But I think it's going to allow for, again, sort of spikier, odder, stranger stories to be told or movies to be made. And I think that...

There's a possibility, and this may be very utopian of me, but there's a possibility that by cutting costs so much, it's going to, again, disempower the money people, empower the creative people, and even the Holy Grail would be leading to artists owning their own work.

There's a possibility, and this may be very utopian of me, but there's a possibility that by cutting costs so much, it's going to, again, disempower the money people, empower the creative people, and even the Holy Grail would be leading to artists owning their own work.

I think that, I think that, listen, I know I'm afraid I'm going to get blowback because I'm being Panglossian. I'm being too optimistic about this stuff. And I totally recognize like there's a way in which if things go wrong, right? There's a way in which you just have producers hitting buttons. Give me a mystery thriller. Give me a Superman era movie. Give me whatever.

I think that, I think that, listen, I know I'm afraid I'm going to get blowback because I'm being Panglossian. I'm being too optimistic about this stuff. And I totally recognize like there's a way in which if things go wrong, right? There's a way in which you just have producers hitting buttons. Give me a mystery thriller. Give me a Superman era movie. Give me whatever.

And that's what we're going to get. And I think that the general, my take is rather contrarian. I think most people tend to be siding on the side of pessimism. And they could be right and I could be completely wrong. Well, time will tell. Time will tell. Or both could be right.

And that's what we're going to get. And I think that the general, my take is rather contrarian. I think most people tend to be siding on the side of pessimism. And they could be right and I could be completely wrong. Well, time will tell. Time will tell. Or both could be right.

I think that there's a case to be made for the fact that it's going to hopefully end up being a tool that empowers creative people rather than disempowers them.

I think that there's a case to be made for the fact that it's going to hopefully end up being a tool that empowers creative people rather than disempowers them.

So script doctoring is... A lot of times, the script is... You can be writing... The script is about to go into production, or you're writing reshoots. So they've already shot the script. You're going to watch the whole rough cut of the film and go, oh, this story needs to be fixed here or there. So...

So script doctoring is... A lot of times, the script is... You can be writing... The script is about to go into production, or you're writing reshoots. So they've already shot the script. You're going to watch the whole rough cut of the film and go, oh, this story needs to be fixed here or there. So...

There's already software out there where you can just, you hit a button and you go, give me a song that's a Mid-tempo, blah, blah, blah, with lyrics about blah, blah, blah, and you hit the button and you get that song. But I don't think people are using that. People don't want to listen to just bespoke songs that only they know. Part of the function of art is creating a community, right?

There's already software out there where you can just, you hit a button and you go, give me a song that's a Mid-tempo, blah, blah, blah, with lyrics about blah, blah, blah, and you hit the button and you get that song. But I don't think people are using that. People don't want to listen to just bespoke songs that only they know. Part of the function of art is creating a community, right?

People want to go see Taylor Swift. They want to see her sing her own songs. They want to know that she's written her own songs that's based on her experience, her life, her human experience, right? Yeah. It's going to create a community where everybody can go and sing along, right? So we all know these songs. That's what art does, creates a community around us.

People want to go see Taylor Swift. They want to see her sing her own songs. They want to know that she's written her own songs that's based on her experience, her life, her human experience, right? Yeah. It's going to create a community where everybody can go and sing along, right? So we all know these songs. That's what art does, creates a community around us.

And I think that there's this weird Silicon Valley thing that like now we're all going to get to make our own individual movies that are going to be custom made for us. But I don't think people want that. I mean, this is what happened with Barbie, right? Was it became this cultural phenomenon?

And I think that there's this weird Silicon Valley thing that like now we're all going to get to make our own individual movies that are going to be custom made for us. But I don't think people want that. I mean, this is what happened with Barbie, right? Was it became this cultural phenomenon?

Like you went to see Barbie because it was the Barbie movie and you were going to be able to take part in this broader cultural conversation. And I also feel like Warner Brothers could have just had a synthetic Barbie and a synthetic Kent, right? They come out of a computer. People don't want that. People want to see Margot Robbie and Ryan Gosling playing Barbie and Kent.

Like you went to see Barbie because it was the Barbie movie and you were going to be able to take part in this broader cultural conversation. And I also feel like Warner Brothers could have just had a synthetic Barbie and a synthetic Kent, right? They come out of a computer. People don't want that. People want to see Margot Robbie and Ryan Gosling playing Barbie and Kent.

They want to see human people. So I think there's a lot of panic now in sort of actors being replaced, writers being replaced, because you can just hit a button and have this stuff happen. I mean, maybe there's people out there that are just sitting there like making their own music and only listening to that. But I don't think that's the reason that people...

They want to see human people. So I think there's a lot of panic now in sort of actors being replaced, writers being replaced, because you can just hit a button and have this stuff happen. I mean, maybe there's people out there that are just sitting there like making their own music and only listening to that. But I don't think that's the reason that people...

Man, my career is just stumbling blindly from one obstacle to another in a series of near disasters and close escapes. I don't know how I ended up with the career I ended up with. The goal was always to be a director. I think I have two or three scripts now that I feel like are ready to be shot. I'm hoping I'll be shooting sometime next year. You know what?

Man, my career is just stumbling blindly from one obstacle to another in a series of near disasters and close escapes. I don't know how I ended up with the career I ended up with. The goal was always to be a director. I think I have two or three scripts now that I feel like are ready to be shot. I'm hoping I'll be shooting sometime next year. You know what?

The honest truth is that I feel as though I've only recently really mastered the craft of writing. And I think that I only recently felt really comfortable that I know what I'm doing. That was just only a couple of years ago. And I think for the first 30... years of my career, I was still a student. I was still figuring things out.

The honest truth is that I feel as though I've only recently really mastered the craft of writing. And I think that I only recently felt really comfortable that I know what I'm doing. That was just only a couple of years ago. And I think for the first 30... years of my career, I was still a student. I was still figuring things out.

And usually you're brought in for, it can be one week, it could be two weeks, it could be three weeks. On Catching Fire, Catching Fire was actually a script doctoring job. So I was brought in for four weeks. So I did four weeks of work. And most of the time you don't get any credit for it. Most of the time you're just working kind of anonymously

And usually you're brought in for, it can be one week, it could be two weeks, it could be three weeks. On Catching Fire, Catching Fire was actually a script doctoring job. So I was brought in for four weeks. So I did four weeks of work. And most of the time you don't get any credit for it. Most of the time you're just working kind of anonymously

I'd written a bunch of scripts, and it was a little bit like throwing darts at the dartboard, right? And when Little Miss Sunshine came out and was such a big success, it felt like I'd thrown a dart and it hit the bullseye. But I was like, wait a minute, how did I do that? How did that happen? Because I feel like I was not... I still didn't understand stories and how storytelling worked.

I'd written a bunch of scripts, and it was a little bit like throwing darts at the dartboard, right? And when Little Miss Sunshine came out and was such a big success, it felt like I'd thrown a dart and it hit the bullseye. But I was like, wait a minute, how did I do that? How did that happen? Because I feel like I was not... I still didn't understand stories and how storytelling worked.

And I think that a lot of my career, I mean, this is what was so great about working at Pixar, was that I was still learning. I was still figuring out how stories work, watching WALL-E get made, watching UP get made, watching all that stuff get made, and then doing it myself.

And I think that a lot of my career, I mean, this is what was so great about working at Pixar, was that I was still learning. I was still figuring out how stories work, watching WALL-E get made, watching UP get made, watching all that stuff get made, and then doing it myself.

And then making these videos, like the videos have been helpful to me just in sort of clarifying, articulating like the organic logic of a story. How do stories really work? And so the truth is, maybe everyone else is smarter than me and I'm just a dumb guy, but for me, it's really hard to write a good screenplay. Oh yeah, that's definitely it, right?

And then making these videos, like the videos have been helpful to me just in sort of clarifying, articulating like the organic logic of a story. How do stories really work? And so the truth is, maybe everyone else is smarter than me and I'm just a dumb guy, but for me, it's really hard to write a good screenplay. Oh yeah, that's definitely it, right?

It's really hard to write a great screenplay that you really love. And I think that when I wrote Little Miss Sunshine, I wanted to direct it and that didn't happen. It took me a long, long time to write another two or three original screenplays that I love as much as I love That movie. And so I feel like I'm knock on wood. I'm ready to start directing those things now.

It's really hard to write a great screenplay that you really love. And I think that when I wrote Little Miss Sunshine, I wanted to direct it and that didn't happen. It took me a long, long time to write another two or three original screenplays that I love as much as I love That movie. And so I feel like I'm knock on wood. I'm ready to start directing those things now.

But I think that what's been guiding my career up until this point is kind of the sense of like, I'm still figuring this out because storytelling is so difficult and so mysterious and also powerful. Like I feel like movies have huge influence on your lives. Movies can change your life, right? I think it's an enormous responsibility also. And you don't want to be putting crap out there.

But I think that what's been guiding my career up until this point is kind of the sense of like, I'm still figuring this out because storytelling is so difficult and so mysterious and also powerful. Like I feel like movies have huge influence on your lives. Movies can change your life, right? I think it's an enormous responsibility also. And you don't want to be putting crap out there.

So I think that, you know, when I look back at my career, I could have been more bold. I could have been more, what the hell, I'm going to try it. But I think that I was really still invested in trying to figure out sort of how stories work. I'll make my next movie. I'll make a, I'll direct it and the script will be terrible. And people will go like, like, what were you thinking?

So I think that, you know, when I look back at my career, I could have been more bold. I could have been more, what the hell, I'm going to try it. But I think that I was really still invested in trying to figure out sort of how stories work. I'll make my next movie. I'll make a, I'll direct it and the script will be terrible. And people will go like, like, what were you thinking?

You know, you wasted 30.

You know, you wasted 30.

Exactly. There's been no logic to my career or the direction of my career other than work with good people, take the opportunities when they come along, and always put yourself in a position where you feel like you're learning something. I love that.

Exactly. There's been no logic to my career or the direction of my career other than work with good people, take the opportunities when they come along, and always put yourself in a position where you feel like you're learning something. I love that.

And if I can just put in the plug for my screenwriting videos, like you can go on YouTube and I think just put in my name, Michael Arndt and screenwriting videos.

And if I can just put in the plug for my screenwriting videos, like you can go on YouTube and I think just put in my name, Michael Arndt and screenwriting videos.

And working as a craftsman, you're taking the story, putting it up on blogs and going, what's working with this thing? What's not working with the story? How do I fix it? How do I optimize it, right? The movie's trying to do something. How do I make it work better? It really is just sort of just trying to optimize what the story itself is.

And working as a craftsman, you're taking the story, putting it up on blogs and going, what's working with this thing? What's not working with the story? How do I fix it? How do I optimize it, right? The movie's trying to do something. How do I make it work better? It really is just sort of just trying to optimize what the story itself is.

And also I feel like this is, I'm making the videos that I wish I had seen when I was starting out. I'm making the videos that I wish somebody had made for me. And I think that figuring out the knowledge about... external stakes, internal stakes, and philosophical stakes. Figuring all that stuff out took me a long, long time.

And also I feel like this is, I'm making the videos that I wish I had seen when I was starting out. I'm making the videos that I wish somebody had made for me. And I think that figuring out the knowledge about... external stakes, internal stakes, and philosophical stakes. Figuring all that stuff out took me a long, long time.

I would hate to have all that knowledge just for me to get hit by a bus and have all that knowledge disappear. So I wanted to just sit down, make these videos, put them out there, and hopefully people can find them helpful.

I would hate to have all that knowledge just for me to get hit by a bus and have all that knowledge disappear. So I wanted to just sit down, make these videos, put them out there, and hopefully people can find them helpful.

They're such a great resource, and I'm very, very grateful for them. thank you for making them.

They're such a great resource, and I'm very, very grateful for them. thank you for making them.

Thank you. And I think that I'll just say, like, I'm making this new thing about how to write a good first act. It'll probably be about 60 minutes long. The examples I'm using are from The Godfather, Cinderella, Tootsie, and The Bicycle Thief. And all those first acts are just totally dynamite, totally great. And they all work in sort of the same way.

Thank you. And I think that I'll just say, like, I'm making this new thing about how to write a good first act. It'll probably be about 60 minutes long. The examples I'm using are from The Godfather, Cinderella, Tootsie, and The Bicycle Thief. And all those first acts are just totally dynamite, totally great. And they all work in sort of the same way.

If people are wondering if I'm going to make a new video, yeah, there's one that'll be out in, I don't know, I'm very, these things take a long time, so it'll

If people are wondering if I'm going to make a new video, yeah, there's one that'll be out in, I don't know, I'm very, these things take a long time, so it'll

You're invited, man. You're invited. If I'm making a movie, hopefully we'll be shooting in New York. If you're going to be in New York while we're shooting, come by and you can go to the craft service and get all the free food.

You're invited, man. You're invited. If I'm making a movie, hopefully we'll be shooting in New York. If you're going to be in New York while we're shooting, come by and you can go to the craft service and get all the free food.

Sometimes you'll be brought in to punch up characters, to warm up characters, get the audience to like a character. Sometimes you'll be brought in to fix up the whole thing. Wow.

Sometimes you'll be brought in to punch up characters, to warm up characters, get the audience to like a character. Sometimes you'll be brought in to fix up the whole thing. Wow.

I mean, usually... The script is heading towards production. Usually there's a consensus that the script isn't working. Sometimes it's already in production, sometimes it's in post-production. And I've been brought in for, you know, the longest job I did was on Hunger Games Catching Fire. That was a four-week job.

I mean, usually... The script is heading towards production. Usually there's a consensus that the script isn't working. Sometimes it's already in production, sometimes it's in post-production. And I've been brought in for, you know, the longest job I did was on Hunger Games Catching Fire. That was a four-week job.

The shortest was I was brought in for one day on a movie and just told to warm up the lead character a little bit in a character's introduction. And that was in post-production. They had already made the movie.

The shortest was I was brought in for one day on a movie and just told to warm up the lead character a little bit in a character's introduction. And that was in post-production. They had already made the movie.

Yeah, I think that, I mean, a lot of times you're very cost-conscious. You're just trying to figure out, like, if they're doing reshoots, what's their reshoot budget? How many days are they going to be able to reshoot? And then you're picking and choosing. You're going, like, big problems, medium-sized problems, and small problems, and trying to, like, address the big problems or not.

Yeah, I think that, I mean, a lot of times you're very cost-conscious. You're just trying to figure out, like, if they're doing reshoots, what's their reshoot budget? How many days are they going to be able to reshoot? And then you're picking and choosing. You're going, like, big problems, medium-sized problems, and small problems, and trying to, like, address the big problems or not.

And then I'll just say that I won't name the film, but I was brought in one time. There was a film, big-budget film. It had a full cast, full crew. They had rendered the sound stages. They were just ready to start going, and the studio was not completely happy with the script. They thought the script could be streamlined a little bit.

And then I'll just say that I won't name the film, but I was brought in one time. There was a film, big-budget film. It had a full cast, full crew. They had rendered the sound stages. They were just ready to start going, and the studio was not completely happy with the script. They thought the script could be streamlined a little bit.

And the director said to me, he said, we're spending three million dollars a week not to make this movie. Oh, God. Wow. You know, I come in and I'm just like cut 15 or 20 pages of the script. But cutting 15 or 20 pages out of script is like cutting 15 or 20 million dollars out of the budget. Oh, wow. You're always trying to be cost conscious.

And the director said to me, he said, we're spending three million dollars a week not to make this movie. Oh, God. Wow. You know, I come in and I'm just like cut 15 or 20 pages of the script. But cutting 15 or 20 pages out of script is like cutting 15 or 20 million dollars out of the budget. Oh, wow. You're always trying to be cost conscious.

You're always trying to find very efficient ways to make the script better. But a lot of times what you're just doing is it can't be cost conscious if you're just, you know, making a script better. My joke is that there's nothing more expensive than bad writing and there's nothing cheaper than good writing.

You're always trying to find very efficient ways to make the script better. But a lot of times what you're just doing is it can't be cost conscious if you're just, you know, making a script better. My joke is that there's nothing more expensive than bad writing and there's nothing cheaper than good writing.

Totally. Totally. Totally. Totally. And if you can come up with a dynamite ending, I'm just telling you like four or five good jokes and that's going to get you an extra 20 million dollars like at the box office. Really?

Totally. Totally. Totally. Totally. And if you can come up with a dynamite ending, I'm just telling you like four or five good jokes and that's going to get you an extra 20 million dollars like at the box office. Really?

Individually, they're idiots, but collectively, they're a genius, you know, and I think that you have to respect the genius of your audience, right? Your audience is smarter than you. And so you have to be humble and you have to listen to the feedback you're getting.

Individually, they're idiots, but collectively, they're a genius, you know, and I think that you have to respect the genius of your audience, right? Your audience is smarter than you. And so you have to be humble and you have to listen to the feedback you're getting.

Yeah. So, I mean, sometimes you're brought in to do a humor pass. Sometimes you're brought in to do a page one rewrite, start, finish, rewrite the whole thing. And then sometimes you're brought in to just fix certain characters or certain scenes.

Yeah. So, I mean, sometimes you're brought in to do a humor pass. Sometimes you're brought in to do a page one rewrite, start, finish, rewrite the whole thing. And then sometimes you're brought in to just fix certain characters or certain scenes.

So being a script doctor sounds like an incredible job, but a lot of your career has been actually writing original stories. In one of your video essays where you break down the philosophy of your storytelling and all the lessons that you've learned in your career, you say that the best metaphor you have for coming up with a story is you're trying to climb a mountain blindfolded.

So being a script doctor sounds like an incredible job, but a lot of your career has been actually writing original stories. In one of your video essays where you break down the philosophy of your storytelling and all the lessons that you've learned in your career, you say that the best metaphor you have for coming up with a story is you're trying to climb a mountain blindfolded.

It's hard because you don't know where you're going. You don't know where the top is. You can't see what's below you. But actually, you say the hardest part about climbing a mountain blindfolded is that you just can't find the mountain.

It's hard because you don't know where you're going. You don't know where the top is. You can't see what's below you. But actually, you say the hardest part about climbing a mountain blindfolded is that you just can't find the mountain.

That applies to working as a screenwriter in Hollywood as much as it does to like entrepreneurship or parenting or discovering your purpose, really anything in life. So How do you find the mountain?

That applies to working as a screenwriter in Hollywood as much as it does to like entrepreneurship or parenting or discovering your purpose, really anything in life. So How do you find the mountain?

That's an excellent question, actually. I think that when I think back on the films that I've written, usually there's a single moment in a story that was the inspiration for it. And I'll give you two examples. One was Little Miss Sunshine. And I was just looking for a good ending to the story.

That's an excellent question, actually. I think that when I think back on the films that I've written, usually there's a single moment in a story that was the inspiration for it. And I'll give you two examples. One was Little Miss Sunshine. And I was just looking for a good ending to the story.

And I wanted to write an ending that I made videos about, like an insanely great ending where it seems like the worst thing is about to happen and then the best possible thing happens. I spent six months just like trying to figure out what a good ending should be. And I was like, how can you engineer it? So everyone in the audience thinks the worst possible thing is going to happen.

And I wanted to write an ending that I made videos about, like an insanely great ending where it seems like the worst thing is about to happen and then the best possible thing happens. I spent six months just like trying to figure out what a good ending should be. And I was like, how can you engineer it? So everyone in the audience thinks the worst possible thing is going to happen.

And then in one second, you flip it over, the best possible thing happens. And I was thinking like, you know, should it be a sports movie? But that's kind of a cliche. Should it be like romantic comedy? It's hard to avoid cliches with that. I couldn't figure out. And then I was watching this little child beauty pageant on TV. And there were all these little skinny blonde girls.

And then in one second, you flip it over, the best possible thing happens. And I was thinking like, you know, should it be a sports movie? But that's kind of a cliche. Should it be like romantic comedy? It's hard to avoid cliches with that. I couldn't figure out. And then I was watching this little child beauty pageant on TV. And there were all these little skinny blonde girls.

And I just thought, God, wouldn't it be great If a little chubby girl got up there and you totally thought she would be humiliated, be the worst moment of her life. And then the music came on and she just rocked the house and just blew everybody away. I was like, that's a good ending. I know that's a good ending. So that was the beginning.

And I just thought, God, wouldn't it be great If a little chubby girl got up there and you totally thought she would be humiliated, be the worst moment of her life. And then the music came on and she just rocked the house and just blew everybody away. I was like, that's a good ending. I know that's a good ending. So that was the beginning.

And then you go, like, if that's the ending, like, who is this little girl? What is this pageant? How did she get there? Who is her family, et cetera, et cetera. There's other scripts that I've written that have been based on the inciting incident of the story. I go, oh, that's a great beginning. I know where I can go with this because that's a great beginning.

And then you go, like, if that's the ending, like, who is this little girl? What is this pageant? How did she get there? Who is her family, et cetera, et cetera. There's other scripts that I've written that have been based on the inciting incident of the story. I go, oh, that's a great beginning. I know where I can go with this because that's a great beginning.

Sometimes it's like a speech that a character gives and you go, oh, I want to hear a character give this speech. And then you're building the rest of the story out from it. So a lot of times you're finding the spark of inspiration just in a single moment. And then you just elaborate on that universe out from that single moment.

Sometimes it's like a speech that a character gives and you go, oh, I want to hear a character give this speech. And then you're building the rest of the story out from it. So a lot of times you're finding the spark of inspiration just in a single moment. And then you just elaborate on that universe out from that single moment.

I feel like the low moment before your climax is actually the centrifugal center of your story. A lot of times what you're doing with your story is trying to drive your character down to the place where the worst possible thing is going to happen to them. And that becomes the focus of the rest of your story, right? You're just trying to go to the worst possible place.

I feel like the low moment before your climax is actually the centrifugal center of your story. A lot of times what you're doing with your story is trying to drive your character down to the place where the worst possible thing is going to happen to them. And that becomes the focus of the rest of your story, right? You're just trying to go to the worst possible place.

I'll just grab off the top of my head. An example in Fellini's Eight and a Half, right? Like he's trying to figure out a story that he can make into a movie and he's failing and failing and failing. And finally, he goes to this press conference and they're like, what's your next movie going to be about?

I'll just grab off the top of my head. An example in Fellini's Eight and a Half, right? Like he's trying to figure out a story that he can make into a movie and he's failing and failing and failing. And finally, he goes to this press conference and they're like, what's your next movie going to be about?

And he just doesn't have an answer, you know, and people are mocking him and making fun of him and he crawls on the table and has this fantasy about shooting himself in the head. And then, God, it's such a great, that is such a great ending. That ending is so great.

And he just doesn't have an answer, you know, and people are mocking him and making fun of him and he crawls on the table and has this fantasy about shooting himself in the head. And then, God, it's such a great, that is such a great ending. That ending is so great.

But the first two acts of that story and half of the third act is just getting your character to this lowest possible moment where they feel exposed, humiliated. The worst thing is happening. And so, yeah. And then the Houdini trick for screenwriting is to be able to turn things around in a second. And Fellini does that really, really well.

But the first two acts of that story and half of the third act is just getting your character to this lowest possible moment where they feel exposed, humiliated. The worst thing is happening. And so, yeah. And then the Houdini trick for screenwriting is to be able to turn things around in a second. And Fellini does that really, really well.

But it's funny because you seem to be interested in a few common themes in all of your movies, but one of them is failure. Like Olive's family gets on the brink of disaster in a number of ways. Woody in Toy Story is constantly at risk of losing Andy. Are you particularly fascinated by failure? Is that a Michael Arndt thing? Or is that a theme that makes every story interesting?

But it's funny because you seem to be interested in a few common themes in all of your movies, but one of them is failure. Like Olive's family gets on the brink of disaster in a number of ways. Woody in Toy Story is constantly at risk of losing Andy. Are you particularly fascinated by failure? Is that a Michael Arndt thing? Or is that a theme that makes every story interesting?

Yeah, I think it makes every story interesting. I mean, you're looking for the worst, again, like knowing what the worst possible thing for your hero is. What is your hero desiring and wanting and the best possible thing, but what is also the worst possible thing for your hero? It's interesting.

Yeah, I think it makes every story interesting. I mean, you're looking for the worst, again, like knowing what the worst possible thing for your hero is. What is your hero desiring and wanting and the best possible thing, but what is also the worst possible thing for your hero? It's interesting.

I mean, this is something that I've thought of that's really new is that not only do you have a low moment in your third act or a lowest possible moment in your third act, what I call a moment of despair in your third act.

I mean, this is something that I've thought of that's really new is that not only do you have a low moment in your third act or a lowest possible moment in your third act, what I call a moment of despair in your third act.

So it looks like at the end of your story, your character has failed, externally failed, internally failed, philosophically just failed in every possible way and then being able to flip it around.

So it looks like at the end of your story, your character has failed, externally failed, internally failed, philosophically just failed in every possible way and then being able to flip it around.

The thing that I am talking about in this new video that I'm putting together about first acts is I think a lot of times it's really, really helpful to have a moment of despair in the first act of your story. And you see this over and over again in, well, just an example of Little Miss Sunshine is you build up all this emotional rooting interest. Olive wants to go do this beauty pageant, right?

The thing that I am talking about in this new video that I'm putting together about first acts is I think a lot of times it's really, really helpful to have a moment of despair in the first act of your story. And you see this over and over again in, well, just an example of Little Miss Sunshine is you build up all this emotional rooting interest. Olive wants to go do this beauty pageant, right?

And they've got to somehow get her

And they've got to somehow get her

to california what you want to do is build up all this ahead of steam basically you want like audience emotional rooting interest they want to see this thing happen and then you shut the door so it seems like your hero is never going to get what they want right at the end of the first stack there's no way forward and then just cracking the door open so there's one possible way

to california what you want to do is build up all this ahead of steam basically you want like audience emotional rooting interest they want to see this thing happen and then you shut the door so it seems like your hero is never going to get what they want right at the end of the first stack there's no way forward and then just cracking the door open so there's one possible way

for the character to get what they want creates this sort of maximum rooting interest, this huge audience momentum in the story. So it's interesting that you can have a moment of despair in the third half of your story, but having a moment of despair in the second half of your story, I think is really, really important too.

for the character to get what they want creates this sort of maximum rooting interest, this huge audience momentum in the story. So it's interesting that you can have a moment of despair in the third half of your story, but having a moment of despair in the second half of your story, I think is really, really important too.

I mean, I grew up in New York going and seeing indie films and being really into David Lynch films and all that stuff. With screenplays, the stuff that I read, I think what I finally decided is that the thing that you're going for is the emotion at the end. How do you want the audience to feel when they walk out of the theater? And I made a very deliberate decision on Lola Sunshine.

I mean, I grew up in New York going and seeing indie films and being really into David Lynch films and all that stuff. With screenplays, the stuff that I read, I think what I finally decided is that the thing that you're going for is the emotion at the end. How do you want the audience to feel when they walk out of the theater? And I made a very deliberate decision on Lola Sunshine.

Yeah, it's crazy to think that you could be on the Supreme Court of the United States and be that imbecilic, I believe would be the correct term. Yeah, I guess IQ isn't everything. Also, the test questions themselves were deeply flawed. Some of the questions on the Yerkes test, for example, are pretty subjective, arguably more about knowledge of culture rather than intelligence.

Yeah, it's crazy to think that you could be on the Supreme Court of the United States and be that imbecilic, I believe would be the correct term. Yeah, I guess IQ isn't everything. Also, the test questions themselves were deeply flawed. Some of the questions on the Yerkes test, for example, are pretty subjective, arguably more about knowledge of culture rather than intelligence.

Here's an example straight from the Army Alpha. Test 8, Form 7, Question 31. The author of The Raven is Stevenson, Kipling, Hawthorne, or Poe?

Here's an example straight from the Army Alpha. Test 8, Form 7, Question 31. The author of The Raven is Stevenson, Kipling, Hawthorne, or Poe?

Sure. Why not? Aren't you curious if you'd been an officer or a private? Poe? I don't know, man. Actually, you got it.

Sure. Why not? Aren't you curious if you'd been an officer or a private? Poe? I don't know, man. Actually, you got it.

Okay, how about this? Number 32. Spare is a term used in bowling, football, tennis, or hockey.

Okay, how about this? Number 32. Spare is a term used in bowling, football, tennis, or hockey.

I'm OK with it. But perhaps, as you can see, knowing what a spare is and who wrote The Raven shouldn't exactly qualify you as being intelligent or not.

I'm OK with it. But perhaps, as you can see, knowing what a spare is and who wrote The Raven shouldn't exactly qualify you as being intelligent or not.

If I'm being honest, it's because the Simpsons did a bit on Edgar Allan Poe's The Raven in one of their famous Halloween episodes.

If I'm being honest, it's because the Simpsons did a bit on Edgar Allan Poe's The Raven in one of their famous Halloween episodes.

In 1917, I would not have gotten that question correct, I can assure you. Look, the fact of the matter is maybe you've read hundreds of other worthwhile poems from countless other authors, just didn't come across Poe. Or maybe you're a mathematical genius who stayed away from poetry altogether.

In 1917, I would not have gotten that question correct, I can assure you. Look, the fact of the matter is maybe you've read hundreds of other worthwhile poems from countless other authors, just didn't come across Poe. Or maybe you're a mathematical genius who stayed away from poetry altogether.

But now there are other questions on the Army Alpha test that are less like determining the number of blocks in a stack or what comes next in a pattern. And these types of questions are far more along the lines of the kind of questions you find on modern IQ tests.

But now there are other questions on the Army Alpha test that are less like determining the number of blocks in a stack or what comes next in a pattern. And these types of questions are far more along the lines of the kind of questions you find on modern IQ tests.

Everyone wants to think of themselves as smart. It's human nature. And if you're convinced that certain tests are going to tell you how smart you are, you might just go ahead and take those tests to find out. In fact, I have a friend who was quite fond of dropping into conversations that he had a 145 IQ according to one of those online tests.

Everyone wants to think of themselves as smart. It's human nature. And if you're convinced that certain tests are going to tell you how smart you are, you might just go ahead and take those tests to find out. In fact, I have a friend who was quite fond of dropping into conversations that he had a 145 IQ according to one of those online tests.

Yeah, and one day after having heard him drop the 145 brag into a conversation for like the 90th time, I said, you know what, I'm going to ask some follow-up questions. Turns out he had to take the exact same test eight times before he achieved this high score. And he was looking up answers in between tests.

Yeah, and one day after having heard him drop the 145 brag into a conversation for like the 90th time, I said, you know what, I'm going to ask some follow-up questions. Turns out he had to take the exact same test eight times before he achieved this high score. And he was looking up answers in between tests.

The dude just likes to think of himself as smart, even if he doesn't realize that admitting you took the same IQ test eight times to get your score makes you sound not smart.

The dude just likes to think of himself as smart, even if he doesn't realize that admitting you took the same IQ test eight times to get your score makes you sound not smart.

I will say that I'm old enough that coming across the information as to the average size of one's wang was hard to come by when I was a kid. Couldn't Google it.

I will say that I'm old enough that coming across the information as to the average size of one's wang was hard to come by when I was a kid. Couldn't Google it.

So I've been told. Okay, and look, the fact of the matter is your nerves are going to affect how you take the test. Your environment, your mood, all these things are going to factor in. Imagine being a soldier in 1917 and being stuffed into an exam room and knowing that how you score on this test is going to determine if you're an officer or if you're in the trenches.

So I've been told. Okay, and look, the fact of the matter is your nerves are going to affect how you take the test. Your environment, your mood, all these things are going to factor in. Imagine being a soldier in 1917 and being stuffed into an exam room and knowing that how you score on this test is going to determine if you're an officer or if you're in the trenches.

Yeah. And World War I, according to the movies I've seen, particularly brutal. Oof. And these Army Alpha and Alpha Beta tests devised by Yerkes, and Yerkes went off with the data from these Army tests. He got charts in there with what professions scored what number, and then based on different scores, what professions are best suited for certain people.

Yeah. And World War I, according to the movies I've seen, particularly brutal. Oof. And these Army Alpha and Alpha Beta tests devised by Yerkes, and Yerkes went off with the data from these Army tests. He got charts in there with what professions scored what number, and then based on different scores, what professions are best suited for certain people.

I can't say I saw that particular movie, but you're absolutely right. This is a tricky idea. On the one hand, maybe you can test people for a certain level of intelligence, and maybe some people are better suited for certain jobs than others. On the other hand, how is one test made up of a series of questions going to accurately give you that information?

I can't say I saw that particular movie, but you're absolutely right. This is a tricky idea. On the one hand, maybe you can test people for a certain level of intelligence, and maybe some people are better suited for certain jobs than others. On the other hand, how is one test made up of a series of questions going to accurately give you that information?

Yeah. I mean, as far as determining what somebody is going to do with the rest of their life. When I was in high school, I think they did take the test and I skipped that day. And that tells you all you need to know. Yeah. They were like, don't worry about it. You missed the test like every other test. But we didn't need to give you the test. We have an idea anyway.

Yeah. I mean, as far as determining what somebody is going to do with the rest of their life. When I was in high school, I think they did take the test and I skipped that day. And that tells you all you need to know. Yeah. They were like, don't worry about it. You missed the test like every other test. But we didn't need to give you the test. We have an idea anyway.

I like to joke that, hey, my life might not have turned out the way I thought it would, but it is a little bit comforting to know that my life did turn out the way everybody else thought it would.

I like to joke that, hey, my life might not have turned out the way I thought it would, but it is a little bit comforting to know that my life did turn out the way everybody else thought it would.

So anyway, after World War One, the U.S. government got into these IQ tests and what they purported to mean. They started using the dubious results in all kinds of shady ways. One can even argue that the Immigration Restriction Act of 1924 was influenced by these tests. The Immigration Restriction Act severely limited immigration into this country for people from Asia while favoring Europeans.

So anyway, after World War One, the U.S. government got into these IQ tests and what they purported to mean. They started using the dubious results in all kinds of shady ways. One can even argue that the Immigration Restriction Act of 1924 was influenced by these tests. The Immigration Restriction Act severely limited immigration into this country for people from Asia while favoring Europeans.

Surprise, surprise.

Surprise, surprise.

We're talking about America here. So, yeah, let's just go with racism. You could also argue that the whole field of psychology was validated at the time by Yerkes tests and how much the army dug it.

We're talking about America here. So, yeah, let's just go with racism. You could also argue that the whole field of psychology was validated at the time by Yerkes tests and how much the army dug it.

I did take one of those tests once, but to be honest with you, I forgot my IQ score, which I suppose goes to show you something.

I did take one of those tests once, but to be honest with you, I forgot my IQ score, which I suppose goes to show you something.

Yes and no. Eugenics definitely quieted down, at least for a while. But the notion that you could test someone's intelligence continued, which gets us to talking about the book, The Bell Curve.

Yes and no. Eugenics definitely quieted down, at least for a while. But the notion that you could test someone's intelligence continued, which gets us to talking about the book, The Bell Curve.

You really can't talk about IQ without talking about the book The Bell Curve, and you really can't talk about the book The Bell Curve without talking about Arthur Jensen, who was before The Bell Curve. Arthur Jensen was an American psychologist who worked mostly out of UC Berkeley.

You really can't talk about IQ without talking about the book The Bell Curve, and you really can't talk about the book The Bell Curve without talking about Arthur Jensen, who was before The Bell Curve. Arthur Jensen was an American psychologist who worked mostly out of UC Berkeley.

In 1969, he published a paper in the Harvard Educational Review called How Much Can We Boost IQ and Scholastic Achievement? Now, this paper basically set off a bomb in the world of psychology because he suggested that genetics— played a part in black students scoring lower on IQ tests than white students.

In 1969, he published a paper in the Harvard Educational Review called How Much Can We Boost IQ and Scholastic Achievement? Now, this paper basically set off a bomb in the world of psychology because he suggested that genetics— played a part in black students scoring lower on IQ tests than white students.

Critics were fierce and pointed out that his research ignored the obvious roles of poverty, poor schools, racism and health inequality.

Critics were fierce and pointed out that his research ignored the obvious roles of poverty, poor schools, racism and health inequality.

No, I mean, it struck at people's emotional core that there was something terribly wrong with that, and it didn't go well for Jensen at the time either. I mean, colleagues tried to formally censure him. He had protesters storming into his lectures.

No, I mean, it struck at people's emotional core that there was something terribly wrong with that, and it didn't go well for Jensen at the time either. I mean, colleagues tried to formally censure him. He had protesters storming into his lectures.

So it was more than a bit shocking that after all that happened with Jensen, that in 1994, Charles Murray and Richard Herenstein published a book called The Bell Curve, which claimed that genetics was a part of what contributed to IQ and, again... When we say genetics, Murray and Herrnstein broke that down by race. Predictably, a massive backlash followed the publication of the book.

So it was more than a bit shocking that after all that happened with Jensen, that in 1994, Charles Murray and Richard Herenstein published a book called The Bell Curve, which claimed that genetics was a part of what contributed to IQ and, again... When we say genetics, Murray and Herrnstein broke that down by race. Predictably, a massive backlash followed the publication of the book.

Yeah. Absolutely. In reading some of the criticisms of the bell curve, I learned a few new things like that intelligence is what's called polygenetic. That is to say, it's influenced by a great many genes, each one contributing only a small amount and that there is no smart gene and that gene expression itself can be turned up or turned down by environmental factors.

Yeah. Absolutely. In reading some of the criticisms of the bell curve, I learned a few new things like that intelligence is what's called polygenetic. That is to say, it's influenced by a great many genes, each one contributing only a small amount and that there is no smart gene and that gene expression itself can be turned up or turned down by environmental factors.

And that's because it actually, apparently, lead paint chips are sweet and they taste good. Ooh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Gross. That's why kids eat lead paint chips. They taste like candy. At least the ones that I ate did.

And that's because it actually, apparently, lead paint chips are sweet and they taste good. Ooh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Gross. That's why kids eat lead paint chips. They taste like candy. At least the ones that I ate did.

Exactly. Environmental factors that can influence gene expression are stuff like diet, which we talked about, nutrition, but also toxics and chemicals.

Exactly. Environmental factors that can influence gene expression are stuff like diet, which we talked about, nutrition, but also toxics and chemicals.

Yeah. Absolutely. Also, physical activity, sleep, infections, exposure to UV light and other forms of radiation and stress. The stresses that come from living in poverty can lead to chronic stress, which can lead to elevated hormone levels like cortisol, which can affect gene expression like immune function.

Yeah. Absolutely. Also, physical activity, sleep, infections, exposure to UV light and other forms of radiation and stress. The stresses that come from living in poverty can lead to chronic stress, which can lead to elevated hormone levels like cortisol, which can affect gene expression like immune function.

I think it's fair to say that people with high IQ scores are more likely to support their validity than those with low IQ scores.

I think it's fair to say that people with high IQ scores are more likely to support their validity than those with low IQ scores.

Yeah, you definitely got a beach bod. By the way, that field of study is called epigenetics, and none of these arguments even touch on the whole race is a man-made construct and not a biological category.

Yeah, you definitely got a beach bod. By the way, that field of study is called epigenetics, and none of these arguments even touch on the whole race is a man-made construct and not a biological category.

And the fact of the matter is genetic differences between people or populations within what we call a race are very often far greater than the differences between any two people in what we consider to be a different race.

And the fact of the matter is genetic differences between people or populations within what we call a race are very often far greater than the differences between any two people in what we consider to be a different race.

Yeah. Even though some people in America will explode if you profess the idea that race doesn't exist, the modern understanding of race is born out of racism, mostly European colonization. Hierarchies between population groups were devised to justify exploitation.

Yeah. Even though some people in America will explode if you profess the idea that race doesn't exist, the modern understanding of race is born out of racism, mostly European colonization. Hierarchies between population groups were devised to justify exploitation.

This isn't to say that population groups don't have shared heritage and culture, but a biologist can't see that stuff under a microscope. And as far as they're concerned, race just isn't a thing. Without rehashing the entire controversy, let's just say the overwhelming number of experts in the field disagree with the findings of Jensen and the bell curve.

This isn't to say that population groups don't have shared heritage and culture, but a biologist can't see that stuff under a microscope. And as far as they're concerned, race just isn't a thing. Without rehashing the entire controversy, let's just say the overwhelming number of experts in the field disagree with the findings of Jensen and the bell curve.

Yeah, that's exactly the horseshoe. And by the way, I did say that to some college kids when I was doing this research. I was at a friend's house and their son was there with his girlfriend. And I said that and she had to leave the table because she didn't want to sit with me anymore because I said that race isn't a biological category.

Yeah, that's exactly the horseshoe. And by the way, I did say that to some college kids when I was doing this research. I was at a friend's house and their son was there with his girlfriend. And I said that and she had to leave the table because she didn't want to sit with me anymore because I said that race isn't a biological category.

I do get it because, again, people have a shared culture that they're very proud of. and a shared struggle that they're very proud that they made it through. And so they think that in some way you're coming after that when you say this, which you're absolutely not. I'm just talking about from a scientific perspective. This is just not something that that truly exists.

I do get it because, again, people have a shared culture that they're very proud of. and a shared struggle that they're very proud that they made it through. And so they think that in some way you're coming after that when you say this, which you're absolutely not. I'm just talking about from a scientific perspective. This is just not something that that truly exists.

If you're good at chess, you want everyone to think that means you're smart. And if you're bad at chess, then chess doesn't mean a damn thing.

If you're good at chess, you want everyone to think that means you're smart. And if you're bad at chess, then chess doesn't mean a damn thing.

And by overwhelming number of racist organizations, I assume you mean all racist organizations agree with them.

And by overwhelming number of racist organizations, I assume you mean all racist organizations agree with them.

Yeah, okay, fine. Let's get back to IQ. IQ tests have been changing for a long time now and working towards getting rid of cultural biases. A test known as the Wexler Adult Intelligence Scale was published in 1955, and modern editions continue to be released, including a fifth edition that just came out in 2024. There's also Raven's Progressive Matrices and the Kauffman Brief Intelligence Test.

Yeah, okay, fine. Let's get back to IQ. IQ tests have been changing for a long time now and working towards getting rid of cultural biases. A test known as the Wexler Adult Intelligence Scale was published in 1955, and modern editions continue to be released, including a fifth edition that just came out in 2024. There's also Raven's Progressive Matrices and the Kauffman Brief Intelligence Test.

These tests have tried to reduce these cultural biases as much as possible.

These tests have tried to reduce these cultural biases as much as possible.

Yeah, those questions are gone. These tests focus on logical reasoning, pattern recognition, things that anyone could be good or bad at, regardless of background. The goal being to measure general cognitive ability with as little bias as possible. And there's also the idea that there are multiple types of intelligence. There's mathematical intelligence, spatial, linguistic.

Yeah, those questions are gone. These tests focus on logical reasoning, pattern recognition, things that anyone could be good or bad at, regardless of background. The goal being to measure general cognitive ability with as little bias as possible. And there's also the idea that there are multiple types of intelligence. There's mathematical intelligence, spatial, linguistic.

There's fluid intelligence and crystallized intelligence. Crystallized intelligence sounds pretty cool. It does sound cool.

There's fluid intelligence and crystallized intelligence. Crystallized intelligence sounds pretty cool. It does sound cool.

Actually, there are some organizations like that, only they aren't secret. Mensa, I know you've heard of that one. Yeah. For example, is the largest and oldest high IQ society. You have to score in the 98th percentile or higher on an approved supervised IQ test. They even have their own IQ tests. There's also the triple nine society. You need to have an even higher IQ to get into that one.

Actually, there are some organizations like that, only they aren't secret. Mensa, I know you've heard of that one. Yeah. For example, is the largest and oldest high IQ society. You have to score in the 98th percentile or higher on an approved supervised IQ test. They even have their own IQ tests. There's also the triple nine society. You need to have an even higher IQ to get into that one.

Yeah, they're really just non-profits publishing journals with puzzles and poems and helping to provide scholarships to gifted students.

Yeah, they're really just non-profits publishing journals with puzzles and poems and helping to provide scholarships to gifted students.

Yeah, that's right. And more than a few. We still use IQ scores when determining certain public policies. We still consider it regarding military service. And kids still take stuff like SATs, but that's not necessarily IQ, I think. That is just the idea that we can test people's intelligence and that is still alive and well, just with some healthy skepticism mixed in now.

Yeah, that's right. And more than a few. We still use IQ scores when determining certain public policies. We still consider it regarding military service. And kids still take stuff like SATs, but that's not necessarily IQ, I think. That is just the idea that we can test people's intelligence and that is still alive and well, just with some healthy skepticism mixed in now.

Yeah. At a basic level, you'd hope that we'd be able to test people's intelligence just generally so we can try to make people smarter or find out what is hindering their development.

Yeah. At a basic level, you'd hope that we'd be able to test people's intelligence just generally so we can try to make people smarter or find out what is hindering their development.

Oh, yeah. There's actually a number of IQ tests that have evolved over time. Why don't we start at the very beginning?

Oh, yeah. There's actually a number of IQ tests that have evolved over time. Why don't we start at the very beginning?

So first off, IQ stands for intelligence quotient, which is a term coined by the German psychologist William Stern, who ironically cautioned against using it alone to categorize intelligence.

So first off, IQ stands for intelligence quotient, which is a term coined by the German psychologist William Stern, who ironically cautioned against using it alone to categorize intelligence.

It behooves us as a society to try and figure out a way to gauge intelligence, at least generally speaking. I'm not sure breaking it all down into a single number is possible, but you'd like to think that we could come up with some sort of value.

It behooves us as a society to try and figure out a way to gauge intelligence, at least generally speaking. I'm not sure breaking it all down into a single number is possible, but you'd like to think that we could come up with some sort of value.

Aha, this is the back and forth playing out to this day. And there are scholars, academics and psychologists, you name it, on both sides of the fence. Some have disputed the idea that IQ has any value at all when measuring intelligence. Others believe it can determine academic potential or has validity for clinical purposes.

Aha, this is the back and forth playing out to this day. And there are scholars, academics and psychologists, you name it, on both sides of the fence. Some have disputed the idea that IQ has any value at all when measuring intelligence. Others believe it can determine academic potential or has validity for clinical purposes.

Others will straight up swear by the results and extrapolate all kinds of things from the data.

Others will straight up swear by the results and extrapolate all kinds of things from the data.

The results and interpretations of long-term studies of IQ among large populations is hotly contested. But there is the Flynn effect. Named after researcher James Flynn, this highlighted increases in IQ scores measured all across the world over time. On average, IQ scores were rising by about three points per decade starting in the first half of the 20th century.

The results and interpretations of long-term studies of IQ among large populations is hotly contested. But there is the Flynn effect. Named after researcher James Flynn, this highlighted increases in IQ scores measured all across the world over time. On average, IQ scores were rising by about three points per decade starting in the first half of the 20th century.

And not by a little. Three points per decade might be one small step for a 10-year period, but over the course of half a century, that's one giant leap for mankind's intelligence.

And not by a little. Three points per decade might be one small step for a 10-year period, but over the course of half a century, that's one giant leap for mankind's intelligence.

And that explanation seems to be environment. If IQ was mostly genetic and fixed, you wouldn't expect entire populations to get smarter over just a few decades. Genes don't evolve that fast.

And that explanation seems to be environment. If IQ was mostly genetic and fixed, you wouldn't expect entire populations to get smarter over just a few decades. Genes don't evolve that fast.

Absolutely. But other factors play in as well, like better health, cleaner water. And the one that kind of blew my mind was that we live in more cognitively demanding environments. People do more abstract thinking in the modern world. Modern life just requires more problem solving and, quote unquote, out of the box thinking.

Absolutely. But other factors play in as well, like better health, cleaner water. And the one that kind of blew my mind was that we live in more cognitively demanding environments. People do more abstract thinking in the modern world. Modern life just requires more problem solving and, quote unquote, out of the box thinking.

Yeah. Family size is, in fact, one of the many factors experts point to to explain the Flynn effect. there are plenty of studies that suggest that IQ is going up or at least for several decades it was going up crap so are we getting dumber now There is some data pointing to a decrease in IQ in recent years. Norway, Denmark, Finland have all seen decreases in IQ ever since the 1990s.

Yeah. Family size is, in fact, one of the many factors experts point to to explain the Flynn effect. there are plenty of studies that suggest that IQ is going up or at least for several decades it was going up crap so are we getting dumber now There is some data pointing to a decrease in IQ in recent years. Norway, Denmark, Finland have all seen decreases in IQ ever since the 1990s.

Yeah. Stern wasn't the only one at the time working on ways to test people's intelligence. Most people identify the Binet-Simon test published in 1905 as the first real IQ test. It was developed in France to identify which school children had normal intelligence and which had abnormal intelligence.

Yeah. Stern wasn't the only one at the time working on ways to test people's intelligence. Most people identify the Binet-Simon test published in 1905 as the first real IQ test. It was developed in France to identify which school children had normal intelligence and which had abnormal intelligence.

In Britain, scores started dropping around the year 2004. In the United States, it's a mixed bag.

In Britain, scores started dropping around the year 2004. In the United States, it's a mixed bag.

But there are hints that scores are dropping for people born after 1990.

But there are hints that scores are dropping for people born after 1990.

Yeah, could be. That's the appeal of the IQ test in the first place. If we do have a reasonably accurate way of measuring intelligence, then we can use that data and try and determine variables or factors that can affect intelligence.

Yeah, could be. That's the appeal of the IQ test in the first place. If we do have a reasonably accurate way of measuring intelligence, then we can use that data and try and determine variables or factors that can affect intelligence.

Yeah. I'm from a family of six kids, Catholic, go figure. I like to say my mother had three ways of helping me with my homework. First, she tried yelling at me, then she tried screaming at me, and then she tried shrieking at me, and then she was totally out of ideas.

Yeah. I'm from a family of six kids, Catholic, go figure. I like to say my mother had three ways of helping me with my homework. First, she tried yelling at me, then she tried screaming at me, and then she tried shrieking at me, and then she was totally out of ideas.

If we don't have a measure of intelligence, at least in general, how can we tell if things are making us smarter or dumber?

If we don't have a measure of intelligence, at least in general, how can we tell if things are making us smarter or dumber?

Absolutely. And it's helpful to know if, say, an aging person is starting to lose their intelligence and what can be done to reduce that decline. Also, how can we ensure that every school kid has the best opportunity to learn and succeed? How can we identify students who need extra assistance to achieve their potential?

Absolutely. And it's helpful to know if, say, an aging person is starting to lose their intelligence and what can be done to reduce that decline. Also, how can we ensure that every school kid has the best opportunity to learn and succeed? How can we identify students who need extra assistance to achieve their potential?

The standard testing, which from what I remember of George W. Bush's presidency, he may have done a little paste eating himself. OK, politics aside, look, the fact of the matter is no child left behind had good intentions, but became deeply unpopular. And for valid reasons, it instituted standardized testing and schools were often seen as just trying to teach the test.

The standard testing, which from what I remember of George W. Bush's presidency, he may have done a little paste eating himself. OK, politics aside, look, the fact of the matter is no child left behind had good intentions, but became deeply unpopular. And for valid reasons, it instituted standardized testing and schools were often seen as just trying to teach the test.

Yeah. And by the way, this doesn't mean that IQ tests are completely useless either. They still have some value. An IQ test can illustrate that someone, for instance, has difficulty with pattern recognition or word association. We're not saying that they aren't intelligent, but we can identify areas for improvement.

Yeah. And by the way, this doesn't mean that IQ tests are completely useless either. They still have some value. An IQ test can illustrate that someone, for instance, has difficulty with pattern recognition or word association. We're not saying that they aren't intelligent, but we can identify areas for improvement.

Maybe a kid has got calculus down but needs help with creative writing. I think the takeaway here is that intelligence is complex. It's a concept that we should remain skeptical about when attempting to quantify, especially into something as simple as a single number.

Maybe a kid has got calculus down but needs help with creative writing. I think the takeaway here is that intelligence is complex. It's a concept that we should remain skeptical about when attempting to quantify, especially into something as simple as a single number.

Yeah, it was actually pretty harsh. And the fact of the matter is the turn of the century was pretty harsh in general. The original Benet-Simon test was particularly severe. It grouped children into four categories. Normality, debility, imbecility, and idiocy.

Yeah, it was actually pretty harsh. And the fact of the matter is the turn of the century was pretty harsh in general. The original Benet-Simon test was particularly severe. It grouped children into four categories. Normality, debility, imbecility, and idiocy.

Are you asking what is ChatGPT's IQ?

Are you asking what is ChatGPT's IQ?

Yeah, in fact, a guy by the name of Akaroy Vaynin from Scientific American copied the exact questions from the Wexler Adult Intelligence Scale and he tested ChatGPT with it.

Yeah, in fact, a guy by the name of Akaroy Vaynin from Scientific American copied the exact questions from the Wexler Adult Intelligence Scale and he tested ChatGPT with it.

The verbal IQ of ChatGPT was better than 99.9% of the standardized sample of humans.

The verbal IQ of ChatGPT was better than 99.9% of the standardized sample of humans.

Maybe. But like we said earlier, there's a lot of nuance when you're talking about intelligence. As they mentioned in their article in Scientific American, ECRA asked ChatGPT, what is the first name of the father of Sebastian's children? And ChatGPT couldn't get the answer. I tried it when I was researching this and it couldn't get the answer either.

Maybe. But like we said earlier, there's a lot of nuance when you're talking about intelligence. As they mentioned in their article in Scientific American, ECRA asked ChatGPT, what is the first name of the father of Sebastian's children? And ChatGPT couldn't get the answer. I tried it when I was researching this and it couldn't get the answer either.

Full disclosure, because chat GPT is getting better all the time. And perhaps somebody from chat GPT read the article in Scientific American. I did it right before you and I started taping. It got the answer.

Full disclosure, because chat GPT is getting better all the time. And perhaps somebody from chat GPT read the article in Scientific American. I did it right before you and I started taping. It got the answer.

Oh, perhaps you're struggling with riddles, but you're crushing pattern recognition. Doesn't mean you're not intelligent.

Oh, perhaps you're struggling with riddles, but you're crushing pattern recognition. Doesn't mean you're not intelligent.

Yeah. I'd say that the Wexler one, the Stanford Benet 5, Raven's Progressive Matrices, the Cattell Culture Fair Intelligence Test, those are the most highly recognized IQ tests out there today.

Yeah. I'd say that the Wexler one, the Stanford Benet 5, Raven's Progressive Matrices, the Cattell Culture Fair Intelligence Test, those are the most highly recognized IQ tests out there today.

Exactly. Don't take it to heart. Even though IQ tests have certainly come a long way, they still have a lot of limitations. Real world scenarios, emotional intelligence, unpredictable situations. These are all things that can't be measured really in any of those tests.

Exactly. Don't take it to heart. Even though IQ tests have certainly come a long way, they still have a lot of limitations. Real world scenarios, emotional intelligence, unpredictable situations. These are all things that can't be measured really in any of those tests.

AI systems are great at applying patterns based on its training. And obviously, a computer is naturally going to be very good at math. But that doesn't mean that they have the kind of broad adaptive intelligence that humans possess. Crystallized intelligence, if you will. I told you only Master Yoda has crystallized intelligence. Man, such nerds.

AI systems are great at applying patterns based on its training. And obviously, a computer is naturally going to be very good at math. But that doesn't mean that they have the kind of broad adaptive intelligence that humans possess. Crystallized intelligence, if you will. I told you only Master Yoda has crystallized intelligence. Man, such nerds.

Yeah. You just won't get into the triple nine society. Which is their loss at this point, I think. I don't know. Exactly. I agree. But in all scenarios, I think what's important is that intelligence is incredibly complex. It's more than a simple three digit number or in some of our cases, two digit number.

Yeah. You just won't get into the triple nine society. Which is their loss at this point, I think. I don't know. Exactly. I agree. But in all scenarios, I think what's important is that intelligence is incredibly complex. It's more than a simple three digit number or in some of our cases, two digit number.

And whether it's emotional intelligence, creativity or problem solving skills, there are many ways to measure it or more accurately to try and measure it.

And whether it's emotional intelligence, creativity or problem solving skills, there are many ways to measure it or more accurately to try and measure it.

Yeah, you know, in their defense, these were technical terms at the time. Schoolyard bullies had yet to put the stank on the words imbecile and idiot. But yes, these were the determinations made by the B'nai Simon test.

Yeah, you know, in their defense, these were technical terms at the time. Schoolyard bullies had yet to put the stank on the words imbecile and idiot. But yes, these were the determinations made by the B'nai Simon test.

Now that you've put it that way, I kind of feel bad that I kind of labeled my friend who took the IQ test eight times as dumb.

Now that you've put it that way, I kind of feel bad that I kind of labeled my friend who took the IQ test eight times as dumb.

That said, everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses, and we all need to be very cautious and skeptical about putting too much stock in any single test or number.

That said, everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses, and we all need to be very cautious and skeptical about putting too much stock in any single test or number.

While IQ tests can offer some worthwhile insights, they're just one piece of a much bigger puzzle. They can help us understand certain cognitive patterns, but they can't and shouldn't define who we are or what we're capable of.

While IQ tests can offer some worthwhile insights, they're just one piece of a much bigger puzzle. They can help us understand certain cognitive patterns, but they can't and shouldn't define who we are or what we're capable of.

Exactly. And take AI, for example. ChatGPT may ace the Wechsler test, but it doesn't have the same holistic intelligence that we humans possess, at least not yet. Human intelligence is much more nuanced than that.

Exactly. And take AI, for example. ChatGPT may ace the Wechsler test, but it doesn't have the same holistic intelligence that we humans possess, at least not yet. Human intelligence is much more nuanced than that.

Sounds like maybe you did take one of those tests.

Sounds like maybe you did take one of those tests.

I say go for it. Just remember, it's not the end-all be-all. It's just another way to get to know yourself and help your intelligence grow. I couldn't have put it better myself. And who knows? Maybe you will be inducted into Mensa or the Triple Nine Society. Or maybe you'll just take pride in being a great podcast host, Jordan.

I say go for it. Just remember, it's not the end-all be-all. It's just another way to get to know yourself and help your intelligence grow. I couldn't have put it better myself. And who knows? Maybe you will be inducted into Mensa or the Triple Nine Society. Or maybe you'll just take pride in being a great podcast host, Jordan.

OK, so the test was divided into four sections. The first section was called basic skills assumed of an idiot.

OK, so the test was divided into four sections. The first section was called basic skills assumed of an idiot.

Yeah, that one was pretty simple stuff like unwrapping a piece of chocolate before eating it. Remember, this is a test for children.

Yeah, that one was pretty simple stuff like unwrapping a piece of chocolate before eating it. Remember, this is a test for children.

Again, that would be the schoolyard doing its thing. It's funny comedian Doug Stanhope has a great bit about this He says that it doesn't matter what they switch the technical term to people will just co-opt that word to call friends when they do something stupid he's like Did you just put a metal plate in the microwave? What are you, developmentally challenged?

Again, that would be the schoolyard doing its thing. It's funny comedian Doug Stanhope has a great bit about this He says that it doesn't matter what they switch the technical term to people will just co-opt that word to call friends when they do something stupid he's like Did you just put a metal plate in the microwave? What are you, developmentally challenged?

Testing for idiocy was just an early 20th century way of saying basic.

Testing for idiocy was just an early 20th century way of saying basic.

Yeah, you nailed it. It gets progressively more complicated. But remember, the highest level of the test was normality, so it's not exactly rocket science. For example, one of the later tasks had the tester fold a piece of paper in half twice before cutting out a triangle. Then the child would have to guess what the piece of paper would look like when he unfolded it.

Yeah, you nailed it. It gets progressively more complicated. But remember, the highest level of the test was normality, so it's not exactly rocket science. For example, one of the later tasks had the tester fold a piece of paper in half twice before cutting out a triangle. Then the child would have to guess what the piece of paper would look like when he unfolded it.

Yeah, actually, that's a good one. The Binet-Simon test was very limited, as Binet himself pointed out. So work continued on trying to develop more robust IQ tests. A psychologist from Stanford named Lewis Terman took the Binet-Simon test and he adapted it, later publishing what became known as the Stanford-Binet test in 1916.

Yeah, actually, that's a good one. The Binet-Simon test was very limited, as Binet himself pointed out. So work continued on trying to develop more robust IQ tests. A psychologist from Stanford named Lewis Terman took the Binet-Simon test and he adapted it, later publishing what became known as the Stanford-Binet test in 1916.

yeah and basically what they did was you took the mental age of someone divided it by their actual age their chronological age and then multiplied that by a hundred and bingo that's what an iq score is okay so if you're 40 chronologically and mentally the test says you're 40 you divide 40 by 40 you get one and you multiply that by 100 so your iq is 100

yeah and basically what they did was you took the mental age of someone divided it by their actual age their chronological age and then multiplied that by a hundred and bingo that's what an iq score is okay so if you're 40 chronologically and mentally the test says you're 40 you divide 40 by 40 you get one and you multiply that by 100 so your iq is 100

So what's the average IQ then? It's actually between 85 and 115. So using the bell curve, that's about 100.

So what's the average IQ then? It's actually between 85 and 115. So using the bell curve, that's about 100.

Absolutely. Which is why psychologists have continued to come up with new tests ever since B'nai Simon first published theirs. They've also modified how the number itself is calculated. The whole concept evolved over time, but this is how it started at the turn of the century.

Absolutely. Which is why psychologists have continued to come up with new tests ever since B'nai Simon first published theirs. They've also modified how the number itself is calculated. The whole concept evolved over time, but this is how it started at the turn of the century.

Yeah. In fact, you're not far off on that one. Two very consequential tests were even called the Army Alpha and the Army Beta tests.

Yeah. In fact, you're not far off on that one. Two very consequential tests were even called the Army Alpha and the Army Beta tests.

Yeah, they definitely were. And in 1917, it was the time of World War I, and a guy by the name of Robert Yerkes came up with the Army Alpha and the Army Beta test to determine which Army recruits were better suited for leadership roles and or other specific positions.

Yeah, they definitely were. And in 1917, it was the time of World War I, and a guy by the name of Robert Yerkes came up with the Army Alpha and the Army Beta test to determine which Army recruits were better suited for leadership roles and or other specific positions.

The Army Alpha was a written test, and the Army Beta was made up of pictures in order to include soldiers who didn't read or didn't speak English. Over a million soldiers ended up taking these tests.

The Army Alpha was a written test, and the Army Beta was made up of pictures in order to include soldiers who didn't read or didn't speak English. Over a million soldiers ended up taking these tests.

That's interesting. I don't even think you need to be a U.S. citizen to join the U.S. Army, to be honest with you. Yeah, there was something.

That's interesting. I don't even think you need to be a U.S. citizen to join the U.S. Army, to be honest with you. Yeah, there was something.

Right. Absolutely. And they use this data to screen for officers, sometimes not even considering someone who scored below a certain grade. Fortunately, this sort of data ended up being used in all kinds of nefarious ways, as I'm sure you can imagine. Remember, eugenics was having a moment around the time of these tests.

Right. Absolutely. And they use this data to screen for officers, sometimes not even considering someone who scored below a certain grade. Fortunately, this sort of data ended up being used in all kinds of nefarious ways, as I'm sure you can imagine. Remember, eugenics was having a moment around the time of these tests.

Was. I wish eugenics was a was. Sadly, it's still creeping around out there.

Was. I wish eugenics was a was. Sadly, it's still creeping around out there.

But unfortunately, eugenics is not merely a dick pill, as eugenics was just basically racism in a lab coat. Eugenics was the notion that certain traits like intelligence, physical prowess and even moral character were inherited. And society would benefit by promoting the breeding of some people and in America, the forced sterilization of others.

But unfortunately, eugenics is not merely a dick pill, as eugenics was just basically racism in a lab coat. Eugenics was the notion that certain traits like intelligence, physical prowess and even moral character were inherited. And society would benefit by promoting the breeding of some people and in America, the forced sterilization of others.

And by the way, that is the plot of Idiocracy, more or less, or more to the point that super smart people have fewer children, which is true. And see Idiocracy. It's turns out it was more of a prophetic vision of America's future than just a comedy from the.

And by the way, that is the plot of Idiocracy, more or less, or more to the point that super smart people have fewer children, which is true. And see Idiocracy. It's turns out it was more of a prophetic vision of America's future than just a comedy from the.

Yeah, no kidding. But you're right. It is super dangerous stuff. And in the U.S., many of these ideas took their darkest forms around that time, the 30s and the 40s. There was a eugenics program implemented in North Carolina that started in 1933 and went on for over four decades.

Yeah, no kidding. But you're right. It is super dangerous stuff. And in the U.S., many of these ideas took their darkest forms around that time, the 30s and the 40s. There was a eugenics program implemented in North Carolina that started in 1933 and went on for over four decades.

Over 7000 people are estimated to have been sterilized on account of this program, which singled out people with low IQ or as they called them, feeble minded.

Over 7000 people are estimated to have been sterilized on account of this program, which singled out people with low IQ or as they called them, feeble minded.

I'm pretty sure the traffic in Los Angeles would certainly get a lot better. Yeah. No more Carmageddon. Some might argue that Michael Regilio would be taken off the roads. But anyway. Several states enacted similar programs, not just North Carolina. In fact, California. I'm sitting right now. In fact, it was another principal state that was enacting this kind of stuff.

I'm pretty sure the traffic in Los Angeles would certainly get a lot better. Yeah. No more Carmageddon. Some might argue that Michael Regilio would be taken off the roads. But anyway. Several states enacted similar programs, not just North Carolina. In fact, California. I'm sitting right now. In fact, it was another principal state that was enacting this kind of stuff.

And this whole movement, these programs inspired none other than one Mr. Adolf Hitler. And his view.

And this whole movement, these programs inspired none other than one Mr. Adolf Hitler. And his view.

In fact, all over Mein Kampf, there are references to American eugenics and the praise for what was going on in this country with sterilization of the feeble minded. Yikes.

In fact, all over Mein Kampf, there are references to American eugenics and the praise for what was going on in this country with sterilization of the feeble minded. Yikes.

Oh, it did. In fact, the Supreme Court of the United States in Buck versus Bell 1927 full on supported the practice of sterilization of people they deemed to be feeble minded. Justice Holmes delivering the opinion of the court wrote, quote,

Oh, it did. In fact, the Supreme Court of the United States in Buck versus Bell 1927 full on supported the practice of sterilization of people they deemed to be feeble minded. Justice Holmes delivering the opinion of the court wrote, quote,

It is better for all the world if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. Oof. He later added, three generations of imbeciles are enough. Wow. What's the three generations of imbeciles? That was the family that their case made it up to the Supreme Court.

It is better for all the world if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. Oof. He later added, three generations of imbeciles are enough. Wow. What's the three generations of imbeciles? That was the family that their case made it up to the Supreme Court.

I can't remember who's the bucks or the bells, but.

I can't remember who's the bucks or the bells, but.

Wow.

Wow.

Way to take a swing at mom and pop and grandma and grandpa at the same time, by the way.

Way to take a swing at mom and pop and grandma and grandpa at the same time, by the way.

And I've already hinted at this, but guess who ended up quoting Justice Holmes while on trial for crimes against humanity?

And I've already hinted at this, but guess who ended up quoting Justice Holmes while on trial for crimes against humanity?

Oh, the Nazis got a lot of ideas from America. And in fact, I'll do you one better than just quoting us. Or perhaps one worse than just quoting Americans, Adolf Hitler famously hung a portrait of Henry Ford in his office. Really? Yeah. It's just a fact. Racism and eugenics was very popular in the US. Okay.

Oh, the Nazis got a lot of ideas from America. And in fact, I'll do you one better than just quoting us. Or perhaps one worse than just quoting Americans, Adolf Hitler famously hung a portrait of Henry Ford in his office. Really? Yeah. It's just a fact. Racism and eugenics was very popular in the US. Okay.

So there was this whole idea at the time that some people were born inferior, feeble-minded, and it was best to sterilize them or otherwise remove them from your population in order to create a better society. And they used none other than these IQ tests to justify these ideas.

So there was this whole idea at the time that some people were born inferior, feeble-minded, and it was best to sterilize them or otherwise remove them from your population in order to create a better society. And they used none other than these IQ tests to justify these ideas.

Okay. One cause of hair loss is stress, which sucks because losing your hair stresses you out even more.

Okay. One cause of hair loss is stress, which sucks because losing your hair stresses you out even more.

Yeah, well, lucky you. Most people over 50 are experiencing some level of hair loss.

Yeah, well, lucky you. Most people over 50 are experiencing some level of hair loss.

Hair loss has probably been happening very slowly since 30, but at 50, you start to notice. Bright overhead lights become your enemy. Hair goes through three stages of its life cycle. The first phase is called the antigen phase, and that's where the hair is still growing.

Hair loss has probably been happening very slowly since 30, but at 50, you start to notice. Bright overhead lights become your enemy. Hair goes through three stages of its life cycle. The first phase is called the antigen phase, and that's where the hair is still growing.

Interestingly, the antigen phase for the hair on your head is up to eight years, which is why you can grow your hair so long, while the antigen phase of an eyebrow is just a couple months.

Interestingly, the antigen phase for the hair on your head is up to eight years, which is why you can grow your hair so long, while the antigen phase of an eyebrow is just a couple months.

As a comic, I have to say I'm very impressed. That might have been the first antigen phase joke in history. Phase two is called the catagen phase. This is where the hair is growing dormant and is dying from the inside out.

As a comic, I have to say I'm very impressed. That might have been the first antigen phase joke in history. Phase two is called the catagen phase. This is where the hair is growing dormant and is dying from the inside out.

We should be celebrating that. Okay. Phase three is called the telogen phase. The hair pinches off and dies. Some hairs can reenter the life cycle. Others can't. Scientists now understand that it's hormones that drive these phases. Hormones are the drivers and the brakes on these processes. Hormones determine if you're a shag rug or a hardwood floor.

We should be celebrating that. Okay. Phase three is called the telogen phase. The hair pinches off and dies. Some hairs can reenter the life cycle. Others can't. Scientists now understand that it's hormones that drive these phases. Hormones are the drivers and the brakes on these processes. Hormones determine if you're a shag rug or a hardwood floor.

Who did they think you looked like?

Who did they think you looked like?

I'm getting way outside of my pay grade here, but... dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, which comes from testosterone, is a hormone. And I'm totally oversimplifying here, but DHT can send your hair into the telogen phase, and that's bad.

I'm getting way outside of my pay grade here, but... dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, which comes from testosterone, is a hormone. And I'm totally oversimplifying here, but DHT can send your hair into the telogen phase, and that's bad.

Well, women, by the way, also have testosterone. In fact, I learned that women have more testosterone than estrogen, but they have more estrogen than men. But testosterone, that's for everybody.

Well, women, by the way, also have testosterone. In fact, I learned that women have more testosterone than estrogen, but they have more estrogen than men. But testosterone, that's for everybody.

Seriously, what'd you do? Did you put on like a fake nose and try again?

Seriously, what'd you do? Did you put on like a fake nose and try again?

And you're asking the wrong guy because, again, this is way past my pay grade, but I did actually ask the same question. And the answer I got was that it's the conversion of testosterone to DHT. As men age, they have more DHT, which causes hair loss. The other thing that causes hair loss is decreased blood flow to the scalp. A healthy blood flow replenishes nutrients and oxygen.

And you're asking the wrong guy because, again, this is way past my pay grade, but I did actually ask the same question. And the answer I got was that it's the conversion of testosterone to DHT. As men age, they have more DHT, which causes hair loss. The other thing that causes hair loss is decreased blood flow to the scalp. A healthy blood flow replenishes nutrients and oxygen.

Understanding these mechanisms built the entire hair growth industry.

Understanding these mechanisms built the entire hair growth industry.

Yes, but let's go in order of potential side effects. This is a good place to mention that a lot of these treatments work best in tandem with other treatments. One thing that works really well with other treatments has almost no side effects, and that is microneedling. Have you heard of it?

Yes, but let's go in order of potential side effects. This is a good place to mention that a lot of these treatments work best in tandem with other treatments. One thing that works really well with other treatments has almost no side effects, and that is microneedling. Have you heard of it?

Yeah, well, I was surprised. I hadn't heard of it either, but microneedling is, it's like a kind of acupuncture for your scalp, except it seems to work.

Yeah, well, I was surprised. I hadn't heard of it either, but microneedling is, it's like a kind of acupuncture for your scalp, except it seems to work.

And it kind of is. Microneedling is using a roller device of really small needles to micropuncture the skin, which promotes blood flow, which in turn promotes hair growth.

And it kind of is. Microneedling is using a roller device of really small needles to micropuncture the skin, which promotes blood flow, which in turn promotes hair growth.

Yeah, apparently it can. In fact, it can even bleed, which is still better than the side effects of modern drugs.

Yeah, apparently it can. In fact, it can even bleed, which is still better than the side effects of modern drugs.

Sure, yeah, there actually are, and they're not all placebos. Some herbal remedies have been studied, like salt palmetto. Oh, I've heard of that. This herb is being investigated for its potential to inhibit the enzyme which converts testosterone into DHT.

Sure, yeah, there actually are, and they're not all placebos. Some herbal remedies have been studied, like salt palmetto. Oh, I've heard of that. This herb is being investigated for its potential to inhibit the enzyme which converts testosterone into DHT.

All right. Good luck with that. Look, certain things we do to look good, like working out and eating right, have health benefits. We look good and we feel good. Certain things we do to look good have health risks, like taking drugs to regrow hair.

All right. Good luck with that. Look, certain things we do to look good, like working out and eating right, have health benefits. We look good and we feel good. Certain things we do to look good have health risks, like taking drugs to regrow hair.

We're going to get into the enzyme because it does some really interesting stuff that we're going to get into in a sec. But the fact of the matter is saw palmetto might actually work. So might laser treatments, which are being studied. The lasers are thought to have an anti-inflammatory effect on the scalp and promote hair loss.

We're going to get into the enzyme because it does some really interesting stuff that we're going to get into in a sec. But the fact of the matter is saw palmetto might actually work. So might laser treatments, which are being studied. The lasers are thought to have an anti-inflammatory effect on the scalp and promote hair loss.

But either way, you're getting zapped in your head with a laser and that's pretty sci-fi, kind of cool. Kind of how I imagined all medical procedures will look like in the future someday.

But either way, you're getting zapped in your head with a laser and that's pretty sci-fi, kind of cool. Kind of how I imagined all medical procedures will look like in the future someday.

I saw it, yeah.

I saw it, yeah.