Mickalene Thomas

And I think there's one figure that depicts a female nude and then the kind of half-dressed female bather in the back that's often removed when it's remade. Three main figures on a picnic, and it's a woman seated with two dressed men, fully dressed men, I guess.

And I think there's one figure that depicts a female nude and then the kind of half-dressed female bather in the back that's often removed when it's remade. Three main figures on a picnic, and it's a woman seated with two dressed men, fully dressed men, I guess.

that really is was at the time very controversial because to have a painting that sort of depicts this nude woman just and leisure at a picnic right right it's like what is going on here and then to recreate it where there's three black women yes but to recreate it with three black women who are fully dressed um but this particular painting made uh

that really is was at the time very controversial because to have a painting that sort of depicts this nude woman just and leisure at a picnic right right it's like what is going on here and then to recreate it where there's three black women yes but to recreate it with three black women who are fully dressed um but this particular painting made uh

Edouard Manet, very famous, because it was very controversy, and it's an incredible work that is in France. And it's still there. I think it's at the Musée d'Orsay. I decided to reinterpret or reclaim the space with empowering the one woman –

Edouard Manet, very famous, because it was very controversy, and it's an incredible work that is in France. And it's still there. I think it's at the Musée d'Orsay. I decided to reinterpret or reclaim the space with empowering the one woman –

are the half-dressed woman, the bather, and the one woman undressed as three powerful women who are fully clothed, seated, and not at a picnic, just lounging and giving each other their flowers. And I thought that was very important for me, as you see them, see her handing flowers. As a way, for me, as black women seeing each other as a sisterhood of community,

are the half-dressed woman, the bather, and the one woman undressed as three powerful women who are fully clothed, seated, and not at a picnic, just lounging and giving each other their flowers. And I thought that was very important for me, as you see them, see her handing flowers. As a way, for me, as black women seeing each other as a sisterhood of community,

I think that's mostly what I wanted to convey, sort of this bond, this sisterhood, this love between black women that I grew up experiencing.

I think that's mostly what I wanted to convey, sort of this bond, this sisterhood, this love between black women that I grew up experiencing.

Oh, my gosh. I think if Instagram was around then, I probably would have had a million followers.

Oh, my gosh. I think if Instagram was around then, I probably would have had a million followers.

It was 2010. And it stayed at the modern window for about two years. And I think the modern kept it there because they kept saying that it was bringing a large demographic of people into the museum. Which was amazing because— Also, right, it was also— It was on 53rd Street. You know, you walk by, you look like, what is this? And I think people expected to see more inside.

It was 2010. And it stayed at the modern window for about two years. And I think the modern kept it there because they kept saying that it was bringing a large demographic of people into the museum. Which was amazing because— Also, right, it was also— It was on 53rd Street. You know, you walk by, you look like, what is this? And I think people expected to see more inside.

Yeah. I think— You know, we have to see images of ourselves. I mean, you go through a lot of the different spaces and you just, you know, unless you go to the specified or spaces of African art or Egyptian art, then you start to see elements of yourself. And this is just with their permanent collections. Now they're starting to realize that there have been gaps and they're collecting...

Yeah. I think— You know, we have to see images of ourselves. I mean, you go through a lot of the different spaces and you just, you know, unless you go to the specified or spaces of African art or Egyptian art, then you start to see elements of yourself. And this is just with their permanent collections. Now they're starting to realize that there have been gaps and they're collecting...

histories right that's really interesting in thinking about how art plays such a role and like it's a historical imprint it is I mean for me I have to say that art I would I think that art has saved my life for sure I you know growing up going to after school programs at the Newark Museum like it was like for me this safe haven this comfort this Refuge. I love going there after school.

histories right that's really interesting in thinking about how art plays such a role and like it's a historical imprint it is I mean for me I have to say that art I would I think that art has saved my life for sure I you know growing up going to after school programs at the Newark Museum like it was like for me this safe haven this comfort this Refuge. I love going there after school.

I love doing all the craft projects, the paper mache, you know, exploring different ways of making self-portraits or building houses with popsicle sticks and all of those things that you were doing or like, you know, the taller paper tubes and, you know, making constructions, you know.

I love doing all the craft projects, the paper mache, you know, exploring different ways of making self-portraits or building houses with popsicle sticks and all of those things that you were doing or like, you know, the taller paper tubes and, you know, making constructions, you know.

Not at that time. For me, it was just an outlet, a way of expressing myself, but also a place to go after school until my mother got off of work.

Not at that time. For me, it was just an outlet, a way of expressing myself, but also a place to go after school until my mother got off of work.

Yeah, so when I was in Pratt, I couldn't afford oil paint. I would rummage often through the recycled stretcher bins and gather my materials from that. All I could afford was craft materials because they were cheaper than oil paint, like felt and different fabrics and glitter. It was cheaper than tubes of oil paint.

Yeah, so when I was in Pratt, I couldn't afford oil paint. I would rummage often through the recycled stretcher bins and gather my materials from that. All I could afford was craft materials because they were cheaper than oil paint, like felt and different fabrics and glitter. It was cheaper than tubes of oil paint.

I gravitated towards those materials because they were accessible and affordable for me. But what they did was open up a way of expressing myself. But then when I also, to note that during that time, it was the sensation show. at Brooklyn Museum.

I gravitated towards those materials because they were accessible and affordable for me. But what they did was open up a way of expressing myself. But then when I also, to note that during that time, it was the sensation show. at Brooklyn Museum.

So you had all of these Great Britain artists that were showing at the Sensation Show, and they were using all kinds of materials from, like, Chris Ofili, Elephant Dong, and, you know, you had Tracy Emin personally tell a story, you know, making a tent out of, like, felt and canvas and all kind of material. And so I think seeing exhibitions like that really... were paramount.

So you had all of these Great Britain artists that were showing at the Sensation Show, and they were using all kinds of materials from, like, Chris Ofili, Elephant Dong, and, you know, you had Tracy Emin personally tell a story, you know, making a tent out of, like, felt and canvas and all kind of material. And so I think seeing exhibitions like that really... were paramount.

But yeah, there was a struggle completing some assignments because some you had to use oil paint or some you had to use the traditional materials to make the art.

But yeah, there was a struggle completing some assignments because some you had to use oil paint or some you had to use the traditional materials to make the art.

I would borrow or, you know, some of the, my peers were, they were good. They were like, oh yeah, he used some of this. People weren't too stingy or trying to keep you away from that. But I think we all were working and they saw that I was, I was, in my studio all the time.

I would borrow or, you know, some of the, my peers were, they were good. They were like, oh yeah, he used some of this. People weren't too stingy or trying to keep you away from that. But I think we all were working and they saw that I was, I was, in my studio all the time.

And so sometimes people throw away tubes of paint because they think it's not good and you just cut it open and it's still painted there.

And so sometimes people throw away tubes of paint because they think it's not good and you just cut it open and it's still painted there.

It's kind of like, you know, like, you know, toothpaste, you know, you kind of, so I would, you know, take an exacto knife and cut it down the middle and just open it up. And it's kind of like with some of the turp medium, just use some of what I had.

It's kind of like, you know, like, you know, toothpaste, you know, you kind of, so I would, you know, take an exacto knife and cut it down the middle and just open it up. And it's kind of like with some of the turp medium, just use some of what I had.

Well, when I was very young, about 16 going on to 17 I was going through my own transformation of my identity uh Sexually, my mother was struggling with her addiction. I was living with my grandmother, my father's mother, who I was very close with up until she passed. And I fell in love. And so I moved to Portland, Oregon with my girlfriend at the time.

Well, when I was very young, about 16 going on to 17 I was going through my own transformation of my identity uh Sexually, my mother was struggling with her addiction. I was living with my grandmother, my father's mother, who I was very close with up until she passed. And I fell in love. And so I moved to Portland, Oregon with my girlfriend at the time.

and end up going to a high school in Portland. And after living there with her probably about three years, we separated. She moves back with her family. I decided that I wanted to stay. My mother came to visit me to confirm that I wanted to stay. And I said, yeah. I was... Living in Portland, decided to go to Portland State for a couple of years.

and end up going to a high school in Portland. And after living there with her probably about three years, we separated. She moves back with her family. I decided that I wanted to stay. My mother came to visit me to confirm that I wanted to stay. And I said, yeah. I was... Living in Portland, decided to go to Portland State for a couple of years.

And that's when I found interest in pre-law and theater arts.

And that's when I found interest in pre-law and theater arts.

Yeah. While I was living in Portland, after realizing that I couldn't really afford college and that I needed to work, I started working at Davis Wright Tremaine Law Firm. started as a file clerk and document clerk. And a good friend of mine who was a photographer, Christopher Stark, had just returned from his internship with Nan Golden.

Yeah. While I was living in Portland, after realizing that I couldn't really afford college and that I needed to work, I started working at Davis Wright Tremaine Law Firm. started as a file clerk and document clerk. And a good friend of mine who was a photographer, Christopher Stark, had just returned from his internship with Nan Golden.

And while he was in New York, he learned about all of these photographers. Carrie Mae Weems was one of the photographers he learned about. So when he came back to Portland... Ironically, Carrie Mae Weems had a show up at Portland Art Museum, and he said, you must see this photographer's work. I know you're going to connect with it.

And while he was in New York, he learned about all of these photographers. Carrie Mae Weems was one of the photographers he learned about. So when he came back to Portland... Ironically, Carrie Mae Weems had a show up at Portland Art Museum, and he said, you must see this photographer's work. I know you're going to connect with it.

And so I went with him to see Carrie Mae Weems' show at the Portland Art Museum.

And so I went with him to see Carrie Mae Weems' show at the Portland Art Museum.

Her art is a series of photographs that really depicting sort of the black woman she's known for her early works of the Kitchen Table series. And that's the work that I first saw at the Portland Art Museum was her series of photographs, which reminded me of my own family and myself. I just remember standing in front of those photographs and seeing myself.

Her art is a series of photographs that really depicting sort of the black woman she's known for her early works of the Kitchen Table series. And that's the work that I first saw at the Portland Art Museum was her series of photographs, which reminded me of my own family and myself. I just remember standing in front of those photographs and seeing myself.

And I never felt that way before in front of art. And that was because I saw myself in the image. I saw myself as that little girl sitting at the table. I saw the woman as my mother. I saw the male as whatever male figure that was in my life at the time. And it was like depicting family, love, domesticity. It was just...

And I never felt that way before in front of art. And that was because I saw myself in the image. I saw myself as that little girl sitting at the table. I saw the woman as my mother. I saw the male as whatever male figure that was in my life at the time. And it was like depicting family, love, domesticity. It was just...

an expression of a black experience that was complex and dimensional that allowed me to understand that there was a power with the image with black people in it. I kept going back to the exhibit after I went with my friend. Really? How many times did you go? Do you remember? Probably about four or five times. Yeah. Until it closed.

an expression of a black experience that was complex and dimensional that allowed me to understand that there was a power with the image with black people in it. I kept going back to the exhibit after I went with my friend. Really? How many times did you go? Do you remember? Probably about four or five times. Yeah. Until it closed.

And then I also bought a stack of the postcards of the Table series and the Mirror Mirror. And went to the art store to grab some supplies of Reeves B.F. Cates. Paper and some oil pastels and used Carrie Mae Weems postcard photographic images as references and for like some of my drawings, just like looking at them.

And then I also bought a stack of the postcards of the Table series and the Mirror Mirror. And went to the art store to grab some supplies of Reeves B.F. Cates. Paper and some oil pastels and used Carrie Mae Weems postcard photographic images as references and for like some of my drawings, just like looking at them.

Yeah. And then I was surrounded by artists in Portland who was embarking on that as a profession.

Yeah. And then I was surrounded by artists in Portland who was embarking on that as a profession.

I'm glad you asked this question because it wasn't like there was a story that I grew up with. It was a reality that I grew up with. You know, my brother and I lived in the hillside and a house. We had our own room and it was decorated the way any kid would want their room. You know, we had like the latest things all the time.

I'm glad you asked this question because it wasn't like there was a story that I grew up with. It was a reality that I grew up with. You know, my brother and I lived in the hillside and a house. We had our own room and it was decorated the way any kid would want their room. You know, we had like the latest things all the time.

My mother drove a Cadillac Seville, which was like at that time an expensive car. And my mother was taking care of the family in South Jersey, whether it was helping family members out with rent or medical bills or whatever was needed. That's what my mother was doing. At that point, she was involved and engaged to a drug dealer, and then he eventually got caught.

My mother drove a Cadillac Seville, which was like at that time an expensive car. And my mother was taking care of the family in South Jersey, whether it was helping family members out with rent or medical bills or whatever was needed. That's what my mother was doing. At that point, she was involved and engaged to a drug dealer, and then he eventually got caught.

And so I guess at some point, my mother felt the responsibility to maintain things. And so she was selling the drugs with some other people in her life.

And so I guess at some point, my mother felt the responsibility to maintain things. And so she was selling the drugs with some other people in her life.

Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully I'm not too congested.

Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully I'm not too congested.

I didn't know any of this until about 12 years ago. So a late adult. Because my mother kept a lot for me and my brother. She even kept the abuse that my father did in their relationship away from me and my brother. She never talked about that.

I didn't know any of this until about 12 years ago. So a late adult. Because my mother kept a lot for me and my brother. She even kept the abuse that my father did in their relationship away from me and my brother. She never talked about that.

It was devastating at first because I felt like there was a part of my life that was a lie. I didn't understand it. I had to go back in my own mind to try to figure out, but maybe understand why I was very shy to share things.

It was devastating at first because I felt like there was a part of my life that was a lie. I didn't understand it. I had to go back in my own mind to try to figure out, but maybe understand why I was very shy to share things.

That was my first set of photographs that I did within my class with David Hilliard at Yale University.

That was my first set of photographs that I did within my class with David Hilliard at Yale University.

Oh, sexiness, strong, unapologetic, beauty, vigilante, savior, goddess.

Oh, sexiness, strong, unapologetic, beauty, vigilante, savior, goddess.

No, she didn't. And I think my mother, although she was very strong, I think unfortunately, uh, Which I think happens to a lot of women who are abused. They're robbed and things are stolen from them. And that's a level of confidence. So it was always manifesting in her life in different ways. And so I don't think she knew how to... get over that.

No, she didn't. And I think my mother, although she was very strong, I think unfortunately, uh, Which I think happens to a lot of women who are abused. They're robbed and things are stolen from them. And that's a level of confidence. So it was always manifesting in her life in different ways. And so I don't think she knew how to... get over that.

And so that opportunity for her to be a successful model, when that was also an opportunity that she lost, I think that was something that settled in her, that destroyed her a little. And I think that's part of my understanding as an adult, what might have led her to do some of the drugs she did, the addiction.

And so that opportunity for her to be a successful model, when that was also an opportunity that she lost, I think that was something that settled in her, that destroyed her a little. And I think that's part of my understanding as an adult, what might have led her to do some of the drugs she did, the addiction.

Yes, I am. And I feel like she's definitely always around me. I know that for sure. Like the other day is like I sat down in a certain way and I felt like I was sitting like my mother. I was like, oh, my mother sits like that. Like I felt her.

Yes, I am. And I feel like she's definitely always around me. I know that for sure. Like the other day is like I sat down in a certain way and I felt like I was sitting like my mother. I was like, oh, my mother sits like that. Like I felt her.

Oh, yes, and I love it now. Before I grew up as a kid not looking like her and always covet the fact that I was like, why don't I look like my mother? And I had a cousin who looked like her, and they used to always mistake my cousin for my mother's daughter, which was really kind of like, Messed me up as a child. Yeah. But now when I look in the mirror, I was just like, ah, there you are.

Oh, yes, and I love it now. Before I grew up as a kid not looking like her and always covet the fact that I was like, why don't I look like my mother? And I had a cousin who looked like her, and they used to always mistake my cousin for my mother's daughter, which was really kind of like, Messed me up as a child. Yeah. But now when I look in the mirror, I was just like, ah, there you are.

Oh, yeah. She's got to see it, experience it, celebrate it. She was celebrated for it. She loved the fact that she was a part of my art. She loved coming to the openings. Yeah. She loved coming to my friends' openings. She never, when I decided I wanted to be an artist, she never looked at it as like, now why are you wanting to go and do that?

Oh, yeah. She's got to see it, experience it, celebrate it. She was celebrated for it. She loved the fact that she was a part of my art. She loved coming to the openings. Yeah. She loved coming to my friends' openings. She never, when I decided I wanted to be an artist, she never looked at it as like, now why are you wanting to go and do that?

Some of those things were in my head, but she never vocalized that. She was a supportive dance and music and all things theater. I mean, that's one of the things we shared.

Some of those things were in my head, but she never vocalized that. She was a supportive dance and music and all things theater. I mean, that's one of the things we shared.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I think I would describe my art as radically shifting sort of notions of beauty by claiming space that has been often not have us on the platform as the leading character. We've been supportive characters for far too long and

I think I would describe my art as radically shifting sort of notions of beauty by claiming space that has been often not have us on the platform as the leading character. We've been supportive characters for far too long and

Would you please sing something? No!

Would you please sing something? No!

And do you think it was being made even stronger by the fact there were four of you bouncing off one another?

And do you think it was being made even stronger by the fact there were four of you bouncing off one another?

historical images and that my art gives black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role and validating that and so there's intersections of using and juxtaposing historical tropes but also Disrupting and breaking sort of down those notions of beauty, of ideation that is hold to what is beauty, right?

historical images and that my art gives black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role and validating that and so there's intersections of using and juxtaposing historical tropes but also Disrupting and breaking sort of down those notions of beauty, of ideation that is hold to what is beauty, right?

And so for me, I just look around my community within my world and started with my mother.

And so for me, I just look around my community within my world and started with my mother.

Yeah, I think the Barnes as an institution has always been committed to a particular community engagement. And it always has been about the art and the artists. But for this exhibition to be 15 minutes away from my family, I mean, it was, to be quite honest, like I was very anxious and nervous about it. Really? Yeah, because...

Yeah, I think the Barnes as an institution has always been committed to a particular community engagement. And it always has been about the art and the artists. But for this exhibition to be 15 minutes away from my family, I mean, it was, to be quite honest, like I was very anxious and nervous about it. Really? Yeah, because...

Most of my family members were going to see my work for the first time in person, like my aunts and uncles, my cousins.

Most of my family members were going to see my work for the first time in person, like my aunts and uncles, my cousins.

Yeah, even my father showed up. My brothers brought my father. And a lot of times, you know, people have their own understanding of art. And sometimes, you know, art can be a little elitist and we kind of go off and do things and it's conceptual and, you know, visually you might not understand. And some of them were going to see my mother and reposed in the nude.

Yeah, even my father showed up. My brothers brought my father. And a lot of times, you know, people have their own understanding of art. And sometimes, you know, art can be a little elitist and we kind of go off and do things and it's conceptual and, you know, visually you might not understand. And some of them were going to see my mother and reposed in the nude.

They would see me reposed and reclined in a nude. And they may go, why are you doing that? Yeah. It's so interesting. Why are you showing all that? Why are you exposing yourself?

They would see me reposed and reclined in a nude. And they may go, why are you doing that? Yeah. It's so interesting. Why are you showing all that? Why are you exposing yourself?

Well, one of my cousins was like, why are you going to go and show your mom that way? And I said, well, you know, my mother loves being shown that way. She actually gave me the permission to photograph her exposed. And so I think for them, they were so proud and excited to just be a part of it. Most of them came to the opening night, which was a gala event. So it was a

Well, one of my cousins was like, why are you going to go and show your mom that way? And I said, well, you know, my mother loves being shown that way. She actually gave me the permission to photograph her exposed. And so I think for them, they were so proud and excited to just be a part of it. Most of them came to the opening night, which was a gala event. So it was a

You know, it's like very just like colorful and just lots of different types of people and the music and the energy. So I think for them to experience that part of my life made them feel special. Because I admit, I haven't always been open to sharing that part of my life.

You know, it's like very just like colorful and just lots of different types of people and the music and the energy. So I think for them to experience that part of my life made them feel special. Because I admit, I haven't always been open to sharing that part of my life.

Freeing. It felt freeing and it felt supportive. And just to see the smiles. My brother stood in front of one of the paintings of my mother titled Dim All the Lights. She's wearing a red and black sweater and her hands are on the side. And it was quite beautiful to watch him engage with with the painting.

Freeing. It felt freeing and it felt supportive. And just to see the smiles. My brother stood in front of one of the paintings of my mother titled Dim All the Lights. She's wearing a red and black sweater and her hands are on the side. And it was quite beautiful to watch him engage with with the painting.

But he stood there just, and I was behind him speaking with other family members, but I was watching him on the side. And he kept gesturing the same movement as her for a long time. And he turned around and said, that's her. I know that, Stan. I know that's her. That's what she does. And that just made me feel so good. He had this glow and this light

But he stood there just, and I was behind him speaking with other family members, but I was watching him on the side. And he kept gesturing the same movement as her for a long time. And he turned around and said, that's her. I know that, Stan. I know that's her. That's what she does. And that just made me feel so good. He had this glow and this light

And I think for him, you know, my mother's birthday was coming up, so it was like this energy. You know, my mother's birthday, October 27th. The opening was October 18th. So I think it was this energy. She was there, right? And there was this moment that you had to witness that you could see he was connecting to her.

And I think for him, you know, my mother's birthday was coming up, so it was like this energy. You know, my mother's birthday, October 27th. The opening was October 18th. So I think it was this energy. She was there, right? And there was this moment that you had to witness that you could see he was connecting to her.

Yeah. I think still today, I still believe, based on my experiences as an artist, that institutions are not comfortable with the nude black body if it's not stereotypically presented in ways of... I think I present the nude black body in a way of just like celebrating and honoring and putting forth like all of the strong qualities. I think unless it's about trauma.

Yeah. I think still today, I still believe, based on my experiences as an artist, that institutions are not comfortable with the nude black body if it's not stereotypically presented in ways of... I think I present the nude black body in a way of just like celebrating and honoring and putting forth like all of the strong qualities. I think unless it's about trauma.

Servitude, yeah, yeah, or entertainment, yeah. And I think – The gesturing of like us being performative for an audience is still the notions that the boxes in our compartmentalize some visual artists.

Servitude, yeah, yeah, or entertainment, yeah. And I think – The gesturing of like us being performative for an audience is still the notions that the boxes in our compartmentalize some visual artists.

No, but it's not.

No, but it's not.

It just is. And it's the state of resting, the state of being, the state of existing and rooted and grounded in that space, I think, is somewhat threatening to people. of the ownership of it, taking accountability for their own space. I think when that is exuded, that sense of strength is oftentimes kind of felt with aggression or a threat.

It just is. And it's the state of resting, the state of being, the state of existing and rooted and grounded in that space, I think, is somewhat threatening to people. of the ownership of it, taking accountability for their own space. I think when that is exuded, that sense of strength is oftentimes kind of felt with aggression or a threat.

I've had people say, oh, your images of the women are very confronting. And I said their gaze is very confronting.

I've had people say, oh, your images of the women are very confronting. And I said their gaze is very confronting.

They're looking straight out at you. They're demanding the space. They're not demanding to be validated. They're just letting you know that they're there. But with all that, too, there's still, you know, the other side is there. vulnerability and sensitivity. And I think it's just one-sided if you're going to look at it as that the women are confronting you.

They're looking straight out at you. They're demanding the space. They're not demanding to be validated. They're just letting you know that they're there. But with all that, too, there's still, you know, the other side is there. vulnerability and sensitivity. And I think it's just one-sided if you're going to look at it as that the women are confronting you.

But I think that comes from their understanding. Like, if you approach an image, I can't control what you bring to it. Because you're bringing these ideas of what you think of black women when they're sort of seated in the position of all knowingness. There's, you know, but we have been, we sat on thrones before. And I think, you know, we've been queens and kings.

But I think that comes from their understanding. Like, if you approach an image, I can't control what you bring to it. Because you're bringing these ideas of what you think of black women when they're sort of seated in the position of all knowingness. There's, you know, but we have been, we sat on thrones before. And I think, you know, we've been queens and kings.

And, you know, I think more of those images are now being put forth and celebrated, which is incredible. I love seeing that.

And, you know, I think more of those images are now being put forth and celebrated, which is incredible. I love seeing that.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, I do. It was, uh, An idea I had, I was already working with the images. I've seen like Renee Cox. There's been a lot of artists who work with luncheon and grass as a concept of shifting sort of the paradigm of sort of the black bodies and sort of these Western canon ideas.

Yeah, I do. It was, uh, An idea I had, I was already working with the images. I've seen like Renee Cox. There's been a lot of artists who work with luncheon and grass as a concept of shifting sort of the paradigm of sort of the black bodies and sort of these Western canon ideas.

histories and I wanted to lie myself and sort of it was through actually Ramir Bearden that I started thinking about Lunching in the Grass and thinking about what it would mean to have three black women

histories and I wanted to lie myself and sort of it was through actually Ramir Bearden that I started thinking about Lunching in the Grass and thinking about what it would mean to have three black women

seated in this position and it came from a commission that was presented to me by Klaus Biesenbach at the time he was the curator of photography and media at MoMA and also the director of MoMA PS1 and so he commissioned me to present a body of work in the window of the modern. And I immediately knew when I saw the space that I wanted to do Le Dijonais.

seated in this position and it came from a commission that was presented to me by Klaus Biesenbach at the time he was the curator of photography and media at MoMA and also the director of MoMA PS1 and so he commissioned me to present a body of work in the window of the modern. And I immediately knew when I saw the space that I wanted to do Le Dijonais.

One, because of the opportunity of the space that it was going to be located. Two, because I had the opportunity for the first time to shoot sites specifically at the MoMA and the Sculpture Garden with the Matisse in the background. And three, I knew that many people would see this.

One, because of the opportunity of the space that it was going to be located. Two, because I had the opportunity for the first time to shoot sites specifically at the MoMA and the Sculpture Garden with the Matisse in the background. And three, I knew that many people would see this.

And then it was going to be my largest painting to that date. At that point, I was only working like four by five or four by five feet or like no larger than six feet.

And then it was going to be my largest painting to that date. At that point, I was only working like four by five or four by five feet or like no larger than six feet.

This was 10 by 20 feet.

This was 10 by 20 feet.

Oh, Lunching in of the Grass, La Dijonais Saloon by Manet. And it was a very provocative painting, large oil painting of three figures, but it's actually four figures. Oftentimes they always speak about lunching in of the grass with – Three figures, but there's a fourth figure because there's one person that's bathing in the back.

Oh, Lunching in of the Grass, La Dijonais Saloon by Manet. And it was a very provocative painting, large oil painting of three figures, but it's actually four figures. Oftentimes they always speak about lunching in of the grass with – Three figures, but there's a fourth figure because there's one person that's bathing in the back.

Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully I'm not too congested.

Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully I'm not too congested.

I think I would describe my art as radically shifting sort of notions of beauty by claiming space that has been often not have us on the platform as the leading character. We've been supportive characters for far too long and

I think I would describe my art as radically shifting sort of notions of beauty by claiming space that has been often not have us on the platform as the leading character. We've been supportive characters for far too long and

historical images and that my art gives black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role and validating that and so there's intersections of using and juxtaposing historical tropes but also Disrupting and breaking sort of down those notions of beauty, of ideation that is hold to what is beauty, right?

historical images and that my art gives black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role and validating that and so there's intersections of using and juxtaposing historical tropes but also Disrupting and breaking sort of down those notions of beauty, of ideation that is hold to what is beauty, right?

And so for me, I just look around my community within my world and started with my mother.

And so for me, I just look around my community within my world and started with my mother.

Yeah, I think the Barnes as an institution has always been committed to a particular community engagement. And it always has been about the art and the artists. But for this exhibition to be 15 minutes away from my family, I mean, it was, to be quite honest, like I was very anxious and nervous about it. Really? Yeah, because...

Yeah, I think the Barnes as an institution has always been committed to a particular community engagement. And it always has been about the art and the artists. But for this exhibition to be 15 minutes away from my family, I mean, it was, to be quite honest, like I was very anxious and nervous about it. Really? Yeah, because...

Most of my family members were going to see my work for the first time in person, like my aunts and uncles, my cousins.

Most of my family members were going to see my work for the first time in person, like my aunts and uncles, my cousins.

Yeah, even my father showed up. My brothers brought my father. And a lot of times, you know, people have their own understanding of art. And sometimes, you know, art can be a little elitist and we kind of go off and do things and it's conceptual and, you know, visually you might not understand. And some of them were going to see my mother and reposed in the nude.

Yeah, even my father showed up. My brothers brought my father. And a lot of times, you know, people have their own understanding of art. And sometimes, you know, art can be a little elitist and we kind of go off and do things and it's conceptual and, you know, visually you might not understand. And some of them were going to see my mother and reposed in the nude.

They would see me reposed and reclined in a nude. And they may go, why are you doing that? Yeah. It's so interesting. Why are you showing all that? Why are you exposing yourself?

They would see me reposed and reclined in a nude. And they may go, why are you doing that? Yeah. It's so interesting. Why are you showing all that? Why are you exposing yourself?

Well, one of my cousins was like, why are you going to go and show your mom that way? And I said, well, you know, my mother loves being shown that way. She actually gave me the permission to photograph her exposed. And so I think for them, they were so proud and excited to just be a part of it. Most of them came to the opening night, which was a gala event. So it was a

Well, one of my cousins was like, why are you going to go and show your mom that way? And I said, well, you know, my mother loves being shown that way. She actually gave me the permission to photograph her exposed. And so I think for them, they were so proud and excited to just be a part of it. Most of them came to the opening night, which was a gala event. So it was a

It's extravaganza, you know, it's like very just like colorful and just lots of different types of people and the music and energy. So I think for them to experience that part of my life made them feel special because I admit I haven't always been open to sharing that part of my life.

It's extravaganza, you know, it's like very just like colorful and just lots of different types of people and the music and energy. So I think for them to experience that part of my life made them feel special because I admit I haven't always been open to sharing that part of my life.

Freeing. It felt freeing and it felt supportive. And just to see the smiles. My brother stood in front of one of the paintings of my mother titled Dim All the Lights. She's wearing a red and black sweater and her hands are on the side. And it was quite beautiful to watch him engage with with the painting.

Freeing. It felt freeing and it felt supportive. And just to see the smiles. My brother stood in front of one of the paintings of my mother titled Dim All the Lights. She's wearing a red and black sweater and her hands are on the side. And it was quite beautiful to watch him engage with with the painting.

But he stood there just, and I was behind him speaking with other family members, but I was watching him on the side. And he kept gesturing the same movement as her for a long time. And then he turned around and said, that's her. I know that, Stan. I know that's her. That's what she does. And that just made me feel so, and he had this glow and this light

But he stood there just, and I was behind him speaking with other family members, but I was watching him on the side. And he kept gesturing the same movement as her for a long time. And then he turned around and said, that's her. I know that, Stan. I know that's her. That's what she does. And that just made me feel so, and he had this glow and this light

And I think for him, you know, my mother's birthday was coming up, so it was like this energy. You know, my mother's birthday, October 27th. The opening was October 18th. So I think it was this energy. She was there, right? And there was this moment that you had to witness that you could see he was connecting to her.

And I think for him, you know, my mother's birthday was coming up, so it was like this energy. You know, my mother's birthday, October 27th. The opening was October 18th. So I think it was this energy. She was there, right? And there was this moment that you had to witness that you could see he was connecting to her.

Yeah, I think still today, I still believe, based on my experiences as an artist, that institutions are not comfortable with the nude black body. If it's not stereotypically presented in ways of – I think I present the nude black body in a way of just like celebrating and honoring and putting forth like all of the strong qualities. I think unless it's about trauma –

Yeah, I think still today, I still believe, based on my experiences as an artist, that institutions are not comfortable with the nude black body. If it's not stereotypically presented in ways of – I think I present the nude black body in a way of just like celebrating and honoring and putting forth like all of the strong qualities. I think unless it's about trauma –

Servitude, yeah, or entertainment, yeah. And I think the gesturing of like us being performative for an audience is still the notions that the boxes in our compartmentalize some visual artists.

Servitude, yeah, or entertainment, yeah. And I think the gesturing of like us being performative for an audience is still the notions that the boxes in our compartmentalize some visual artists.

No, but it's not.

No, but it's not.

It just is. And it's the state of resting, the state of being, the state of existing and rooted and grounded in that space, I think is somewhat threatening to people. of the ownership of it, taking accountability for their own space. I think when that is exuded, that sense of strength is oftentimes kind of felt with aggression or a threat.

It just is. And it's the state of resting, the state of being, the state of existing and rooted and grounded in that space, I think is somewhat threatening to people. of the ownership of it, taking accountability for their own space. I think when that is exuded, that sense of strength is oftentimes kind of felt with aggression or a threat.

I've had people say, oh, your images or the women are very confronting. And I said their gaze is very confronting.

I've had people say, oh, your images or the women are very confronting. And I said their gaze is very confronting.

They're looking straight out at you. They're demanding the space. They're not demanding to be validated. They're just letting you know that they're there. But with all that, too, there's still, you know, the other side is there. vulnerability and sensitivity. And I think it's just one-sided if you're going to look at it as that the women are confronting you.

They're looking straight out at you. They're demanding the space. They're not demanding to be validated. They're just letting you know that they're there. But with all that, too, there's still, you know, the other side is there. vulnerability and sensitivity. And I think it's just one-sided if you're going to look at it as that the women are confronting you.

But I think that comes from their understanding. Like, if you approach an image, I can't control what you bring to it. Because you're bringing these ideas of what you think of black women when they're sort of seated in the position of all knowingness. There's, you know, but we have been, we sat on thrones before. And I think, you know, we've been queens and kings.

But I think that comes from their understanding. Like, if you approach an image, I can't control what you bring to it. Because you're bringing these ideas of what you think of black women when they're sort of seated in the position of all knowingness. There's, you know, but we have been, we sat on thrones before. And I think, you know, we've been queens and kings.

And, you know, I think more of those images are now being put forth and celebrated, which is incredible. I love seeing that.

And, you know, I think more of those images are now being put forth and celebrated, which is incredible. I love seeing that.

Yeah, so when I was in Pratt, I couldn't afford oil paint. I would rummage often through the recycled stretcher bins and gather my materials from that. All I could afford was craft materials because they were cheaper than oil paint, like felt and different fabrics and glitter. It was cheaper than tubes of oil paint.

Yeah, so when I was in Pratt, I couldn't afford oil paint. I would rummage often through the recycled stretcher bins and gather my materials from that. All I could afford was craft materials because they were cheaper than oil paint, like felt and different fabrics and glitter. It was cheaper than tubes of oil paint.

I gravitated towards those materials because they were accessible and affordable for me. But what they did was open up a way of expressing myself. But then when I also – to note that during that time, it was the sensation show. at Brooklyn Museum.

I gravitated towards those materials because they were accessible and affordable for me. But what they did was open up a way of expressing myself. But then when I also – to note that during that time, it was the sensation show. at Brooklyn Museum.

So you had all of these Great Britain artists that were showing at the Sensation Show, and they were using all kinds of materials from, like, Chris Ofili, Elephant Dong, and, you know, you had Tracy Emin personally tell a story, you know, making a tent out of, like, felt and canvas and all kind of material. And so I think seeing exhibitions like that really... were paramount.

So you had all of these Great Britain artists that were showing at the Sensation Show, and they were using all kinds of materials from, like, Chris Ofili, Elephant Dong, and, you know, you had Tracy Emin personally tell a story, you know, making a tent out of, like, felt and canvas and all kind of material. And so I think seeing exhibitions like that really... were paramount.

But yeah, there was a struggle completing some assignments because some you had to use oil paint or some you had to use the traditional materials to make the art.

But yeah, there was a struggle completing some assignments because some you had to use oil paint or some you had to use the traditional materials to make the art.

I would borrow some of the My peers were – they were good. They were like, oh, yeah, he used some of this. People weren't too stingy or trying to keep you away from that. But I think we all were working and they saw that I was definitely in my studio all the time. And so sometimes people throw away tubes of paint because they think it's not good and you just cut it open. It's still painted there.

I would borrow some of the My peers were – they were good. They were like, oh, yeah, he used some of this. People weren't too stingy or trying to keep you away from that. But I think we all were working and they saw that I was definitely in my studio all the time. And so sometimes people throw away tubes of paint because they think it's not good and you just cut it open. It's still painted there.

It's kind of like, you know, like, you know, toothpaste, you know, you kind of, so I would, you know, take an exacto knife and cut it down the middle and just open it up. And it's kind of like with some of the turp medium, just use some of what I had.

It's kind of like, you know, like, you know, toothpaste, you know, you kind of, so I would, you know, take an exacto knife and cut it down the middle and just open it up. And it's kind of like with some of the turp medium, just use some of what I had.

Yes, I am. And I feel like she's, Definitely always around me. I know that for sure. Like the other day, it was like I sat down in a certain way, and I felt like I was sitting like my mother. I was like, oh, my mother sits like that. Like I felt her.

Yes, I am. And I feel like she's, Definitely always around me. I know that for sure. Like the other day, it was like I sat down in a certain way, and I felt like I was sitting like my mother. I was like, oh, my mother sits like that. Like I felt her.

Oh, yes, and I love it now. Before, I grew up as a kid not looking like her and always covet the fact that I was like, why don't I look like my mother? And I had a cousin who looked like her and they used to always mistake my cousin for my mother's daughter, which really kind of like messed me up as a child. Yeah. But now when I look in the mirror, I was just like, ah, there you are.

Oh, yes, and I love it now. Before, I grew up as a kid not looking like her and always covet the fact that I was like, why don't I look like my mother? And I had a cousin who looked like her and they used to always mistake my cousin for my mother's daughter, which really kind of like messed me up as a child. Yeah. But now when I look in the mirror, I was just like, ah, there you are.

Oh, yeah. She's got to see it, experience it.

Oh, yeah. She's got to see it, experience it.

celebrated she was celebrated for it she loved the fact that she was a part of my art she loved coming to the openings she loved coming to my friends openings she never when I decided I wanted to be an artist she never looked at it as like now why are you wanting to go and do that some of those things were in my head but she never she never vocalized that she was a supportive dance and music and

celebrated she was celebrated for it she loved the fact that she was a part of my art she loved coming to the openings she loved coming to my friends openings she never when I decided I wanted to be an artist she never looked at it as like now why are you wanting to go and do that some of those things were in my head but she never she never vocalized that she was a supportive dance and music and

All things theater. I mean, that's one of the things we shared.

All things theater. I mean, that's one of the things we shared.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We've been supportive characters for far too long and My art gives Black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role.

We've been supportive characters for far too long and My art gives Black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role.

Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully I'm not too congested.

I think I would describe my art as radically shifting sort of notions of beauty by claiming space that has been often not have us on the platform as the leading character. We've been supportive characters for far too long and

historical images and that my art gives black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role and validating that and so there's intersections of using and juxtaposing historical tropes but also Disrupting and breaking sort of down those notions of beauty, of ideation that is hold to what is beauty, right?

And so for me, I just look around my community within my world and started with my mother.

Yeah, I think the Barnes as an institution has always been committed to a particular community engagement. And it always has been about the art and the artists. But for this exhibition to be 15 minutes away from my family, I mean, it was, to be quite honest, like I was very anxious and nervous about it. Really? Yeah, because...

Most of my family members were going to see my work for the first time in person, like my aunts and uncles, my cousins.

Yeah, even my father showed up. My brothers brought my father. And a lot of times, you know, people have their own understanding of art. And sometimes, you know, art can be a little elitist and we kind of go off and do things and it's conceptual and, you know, visually you might not understand. And some of them were going to see my mother and reposed in the nude.

They would see me reposed and reclined in a nude. And they may go, why are you doing that? Yeah. It's so interesting. Why are you showing all that? Why are you exposing yourself?

Well, one of my cousins was like, why are you going to go and show your mom that way? And I said, well, you know, my mother loves being shown that way. She actually gave me the permission to photograph her exposed. And so I think for them, they were so proud and excited to just be a part of it. Most of them came to the opening night, which was a gala event. So it was a

It's extravaganza, you know, it's like very just like colorful and just lots of different types of people and the music and energy. So I think for them to experience that part of my life made them feel special because I admit I haven't always been open to sharing that part of my life.

Freeing. It felt freeing and it felt supportive. And just to see the smiles. My brother stood in front of one of the paintings of my mother titled Dim All the Lights. She's wearing a red and black sweater and her hands are on the side. And it was quite beautiful to watch him engage with with the painting.

But he stood there just, and I was behind him speaking with other family members, but I was watching him on the side. And he kept gesturing the same movement as her for a long time. And then he turned around and said, that's her. I know that, Stan. I know that's her. That's what she does. And that just made me feel so, and he had this glow and this light

And I think for him, you know, my mother's birthday was coming up, so it was like this energy. You know, my mother's birthday, October 27th. The opening was October 18th. So I think it was this energy. She was there, right? And there was this moment that you had to witness that you could see he was connecting to her.

Yeah, I think still today, I still believe, based on my experiences as an artist, that institutions are not comfortable with the nude black body. If it's not stereotypically presented in ways of – I think I present the nude black body in a way of just like celebrating and honoring and putting forth like all of the strong qualities. I think unless it's about trauma –

Servitude, yeah, or entertainment, yeah. And I think the gesturing of like us being performative for an audience is still the notions that the boxes in our compartmentalize some visual artists.

No, but it's not.

It just is. And it's the state of resting, the state of being, the state of existing and rooted and grounded in that space, I think is somewhat threatening to people. of the ownership of it, taking accountability for their own space. I think when that is exuded, that sense of strength is oftentimes kind of felt with aggression or a threat.

I've had people say, oh, your images or the women are very confronting. And I said their gaze is very confronting.

They're looking straight out at you. They're demanding the space. They're not demanding to be validated. They're just letting you know that they're there. But with all that, too, there's still, you know, the other side is there. vulnerability and sensitivity. And I think it's just one-sided if you're going to look at it as that the women are confronting you.

But I think that comes from their understanding. Like, if you approach an image, I can't control what you bring to it. Because you're bringing these ideas of what you think of black women when they're sort of seated in the position of all knowingness. There's, you know, but we have been, we sat on thrones before. And I think, you know, we've been queens and kings.

And, you know, I think more of those images are now being put forth and celebrated, which is incredible. I love seeing that.

Yeah, so when I was in Pratt, I couldn't afford oil paint. I would rummage often through the recycled stretcher bins and gather my materials from that. All I could afford was craft materials because they were cheaper than oil paint, like felt and different fabrics and glitter. It was cheaper than tubes of oil paint.

I gravitated towards those materials because they were accessible and affordable for me. But what they did was open up a way of expressing myself. But then when I also – to note that during that time, it was the sensation show. at Brooklyn Museum.

So you had all of these Great Britain artists that were showing at the Sensation Show, and they were using all kinds of materials from, like, Chris Ofili, Elephant Dong, and, you know, you had Tracy Emin personally tell a story, you know, making a tent out of, like, felt and canvas and all kind of material. And so I think seeing exhibitions like that really... were paramount.

But yeah, there was a struggle completing some assignments because some you had to use oil paint or some you had to use the traditional materials to make the art.

I would borrow some of the My peers were – they were good. They were like, oh, yeah, he used some of this. People weren't too stingy or trying to keep you away from that. But I think we all were working and they saw that I was definitely in my studio all the time. And so sometimes people throw away tubes of paint because they think it's not good and you just cut it open. It's still painted there.

It's kind of like, you know, like, you know, toothpaste, you know, you kind of, so I would, you know, take an exacto knife and cut it down the middle and just open it up. And it's kind of like with some of the turp medium, just use some of what I had.

Yes, I am. And I feel like she's, Definitely always around me. I know that for sure. Like the other day, it was like I sat down in a certain way, and I felt like I was sitting like my mother. I was like, oh, my mother sits like that. Like I felt her.

Oh, yes, and I love it now. Before, I grew up as a kid not looking like her and always covet the fact that I was like, why don't I look like my mother? And I had a cousin who looked like her and they used to always mistake my cousin for my mother's daughter, which really kind of like messed me up as a child. Yeah. But now when I look in the mirror, I was just like, ah, there you are.

Oh, yeah. She's got to see it, experience it.

celebrated she was celebrated for it she loved the fact that she was a part of my art she loved coming to the openings she loved coming to my friends openings she never when I decided I wanted to be an artist she never looked at it as like now why are you wanting to go and do that some of those things were in my head but she never she never vocalized that she was a supportive dance and music and

All things theater. I mean, that's one of the things we shared.

Thank you.

We've been supportive characters for far too long and My art gives Black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role.

And I think there's one figure that depicts a female nude and then the kind of half-dressed female bather in the back that's often removed when it's remade. Three main figures on a picnic, and it's a woman seated with two dressed men, fully dressed men, I guess.

that really is was at the time very controversial because to have a painting that sort of depicts this nude woman just and leisure at a picnic right right it's like what is going on here and then to recreate it where there's three black women yes but to recreate it with three black women who are fully dressed um but this particular painting made uh

Edouard Manet, very famous, because it was very controversy, and it's an incredible work that is in France. And it's still there. I think it's at the Musée d'Orsay. I decided to reinterpret or reclaim the space with empowering the one woman –

are the half-dressed woman, the bather, and the one woman undressed as three powerful women who are fully clothed, seated, and not at a picnic, just lounging and giving each other their flowers. And I thought that was very important for me, as you see them, see her handing flowers. As a way, for me, as black women seeing each other as a sisterhood of community,

I think that's mostly what I wanted to convey, sort of this bond, this sisterhood, this love between black women that I grew up experiencing.

Oh, my gosh. I think if Instagram was around then, I probably would have had a million followers.

It was 2010. And it stayed at the modern window for about two years. And I think the modern kept it there because they kept saying that it was bringing a large demographic of people into the museum. Which was amazing because— Also, right, it was also— It was on 53rd Street. You know, you walk by, you look like, what is this? And I think people expected to see more inside.

Yeah. I think— You know, we have to see images of ourselves. I mean, you go through a lot of the different spaces and you just, you know, unless you go to the specified or spaces of African art or Egyptian art, then you start to see elements of yourself. And this is just with their permanent collections. Now they're starting to realize that there have been gaps and they're collecting...

histories right that's really interesting in thinking about how art plays such a role and like it's a historical imprint it is I mean for me I have to say that art I would I think that art has saved my life for sure I you know growing up going to after school programs at the Newark Museum like it was like for me this safe haven this comfort this Refuge. I love going there after school.

I love doing all the craft projects, the paper mache, you know, exploring different ways of making self-portraits or building houses with popsicle sticks and all of those things that you were doing or like, you know, the taller paper tubes and, you know, making constructions, you know.

Not at that time. For me, it was just an outlet, a way of expressing myself, but also a place to go after school until my mother got off of work.

Yeah, so when I was in Pratt, I couldn't afford oil paint. I would rummage often through the recycled stretcher bins and gather my materials from that. All I could afford was craft materials because they were cheaper than oil paint, like felt and different fabrics and glitter. It was cheaper than tubes of oil paint.

I gravitated towards those materials because they were accessible and affordable for me. But what they did was open up a way of expressing myself. But then when I also, to note that during that time, it was the sensation show. at Brooklyn Museum.

So you had all of these Great Britain artists that were showing at the Sensation Show, and they were using all kinds of materials from, like, Chris Ofili, Elephant Dong, and, you know, you had Tracy Emin personally tell a story, you know, making a tent out of, like, felt and canvas and all kind of material. And so I think seeing exhibitions like that really... were paramount.

But yeah, there was a struggle completing some assignments because some you had to use oil paint or some you had to use the traditional materials to make the art.

I would borrow or, you know, some of the, my peers were, they were good. They were like, oh yeah, he used some of this. People weren't too stingy or trying to keep you away from that. But I think we all were working and they saw that I was, I was, in my studio all the time.

And so sometimes people throw away tubes of paint because they think it's not good and you just cut it open and it's still painted there.

It's kind of like, you know, like, you know, toothpaste, you know, you kind of, so I would, you know, take an exacto knife and cut it down the middle and just open it up. And it's kind of like with some of the turp medium, just use some of what I had.

Well, when I was very young, about 16 going on to 17 I was going through my own transformation of my identity uh Sexually, my mother was struggling with her addiction. I was living with my grandmother, my father's mother, who I was very close with up until she passed. And I fell in love. And so I moved to Portland, Oregon with my girlfriend at the time.

and end up going to a high school in Portland. And after living there with her probably about three years, we separated. She moves back with her family. I decided that I wanted to stay. My mother came to visit me to confirm that I wanted to stay. And I said, yeah. I was... Living in Portland, decided to go to Portland State for a couple of years.

And that's when I found interest in pre-law and theater arts.

Yeah. While I was living in Portland, after realizing that I couldn't really afford college and that I needed to work, I started working at Davis Wright Tremaine Law Firm. started as a file clerk and document clerk. And a good friend of mine who was a photographer, Christopher Stark, had just returned from his internship with Nan Golden.

And while he was in New York, he learned about all of these photographers. Carrie Mae Weems was one of the photographers he learned about. So when he came back to Portland... Ironically, Carrie Mae Weems had a show up at Portland Art Museum, and he said, you must see this photographer's work. I know you're going to connect with it.

And so I went with him to see Carrie Mae Weems' show at the Portland Art Museum.

Her art is a series of photographs that really depicting sort of the black woman she's known for her early works of the Kitchen Table series. And that's the work that I first saw at the Portland Art Museum was her series of photographs, which reminded me of my own family and myself. I just remember standing in front of those photographs and seeing myself.

And I never felt that way before in front of art. And that was because I saw myself in the image. I saw myself as that little girl sitting at the table. I saw the woman as my mother. I saw the male as whatever male figure that was in my life at the time. And it was like depicting family, love, domesticity. It was just...

an expression of a black experience that was complex and dimensional that allowed me to understand that there was a power with the image with black people in it. I kept going back to the exhibit after I went with my friend. Really? How many times did you go? Do you remember? Probably about four or five times. Yeah. Until it closed.

And then I also bought a stack of the postcards of the Table series and the Mirror Mirror. And went to the art store to grab some supplies of Reeves B.F. Cates. Paper and some oil pastels and used Carrie Mae Weems postcard photographic images as references and for like some of my drawings, just like looking at them.

Yeah. And then I was surrounded by artists in Portland who was embarking on that as a profession.

I'm glad you asked this question because it wasn't like there was a story that I grew up with. It was a reality that I grew up with. You know, my brother and I lived in the hillside and a house. We had our own room and it was decorated the way any kid would want their room. You know, we had like the latest things all the time.

My mother drove a Cadillac Seville, which was like at that time an expensive car. And my mother was taking care of the family in South Jersey, whether it was helping family members out with rent or medical bills or whatever was needed. That's what my mother was doing. At that point, she was involved and engaged to a drug dealer, and then he eventually got caught.

And so I guess at some point, my mother felt the responsibility to maintain things. And so she was selling the drugs with some other people in her life.

Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully I'm not too congested.

I didn't know any of this until about 12 years ago. So a late adult. Because my mother kept a lot for me and my brother. She even kept the abuse that my father did in their relationship away from me and my brother. She never talked about that.

It was devastating at first because I felt like there was a part of my life that was a lie. I didn't understand it. I had to go back in my own mind to try to figure out, but maybe understand why I was very shy to share things.

That was my first set of photographs that I did within my class with David Hilliard at Yale University.

Oh, sexiness, strong, unapologetic, beauty, vigilante, savior, goddess.

No, she didn't. And I think my mother, although she was very strong, I think unfortunately, uh, Which I think happens to a lot of women who are abused. They're robbed and things are stolen from them. And that's a level of confidence. So it was always manifesting in her life in different ways. And so I don't think she knew how to... get over that.

And so that opportunity for her to be a successful model, when that was also an opportunity that she lost, I think that was something that settled in her, that destroyed her a little. And I think that's part of my understanding as an adult, what might have led her to do some of the drugs she did, the addiction.

Yes, I am. And I feel like she's definitely always around me. I know that for sure. Like the other day is like I sat down in a certain way and I felt like I was sitting like my mother. I was like, oh, my mother sits like that. Like I felt her.

Oh, yes, and I love it now. Before I grew up as a kid not looking like her and always covet the fact that I was like, why don't I look like my mother? And I had a cousin who looked like her, and they used to always mistake my cousin for my mother's daughter, which was really kind of like, Messed me up as a child. Yeah. But now when I look in the mirror, I was just like, ah, there you are.

Oh, yeah. She's got to see it, experience it, celebrate it. She was celebrated for it. She loved the fact that she was a part of my art. She loved coming to the openings. Yeah. She loved coming to my friends' openings. She never, when I decided I wanted to be an artist, she never looked at it as like, now why are you wanting to go and do that?

Some of those things were in my head, but she never vocalized that. She was a supportive dance and music and all things theater. I mean, that's one of the things we shared.

Thank you.

I think I would describe my art as radically shifting sort of notions of beauty by claiming space that has been often not have us on the platform as the leading character. We've been supportive characters for far too long and

Would you please sing something? No!

And do you think it was being made even stronger by the fact there were four of you bouncing off one another?

historical images and that my art gives black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role and validating that and so there's intersections of using and juxtaposing historical tropes but also Disrupting and breaking sort of down those notions of beauty, of ideation that is hold to what is beauty, right?

And so for me, I just look around my community within my world and started with my mother.

Yeah, I think the Barnes as an institution has always been committed to a particular community engagement. And it always has been about the art and the artists. But for this exhibition to be 15 minutes away from my family, I mean, it was, to be quite honest, like I was very anxious and nervous about it. Really? Yeah, because...

Most of my family members were going to see my work for the first time in person, like my aunts and uncles, my cousins.

Yeah, even my father showed up. My brothers brought my father. And a lot of times, you know, people have their own understanding of art. And sometimes, you know, art can be a little elitist and we kind of go off and do things and it's conceptual and, you know, visually you might not understand. And some of them were going to see my mother and reposed in the nude.

They would see me reposed and reclined in a nude. And they may go, why are you doing that? Yeah. It's so interesting. Why are you showing all that? Why are you exposing yourself?

Well, one of my cousins was like, why are you going to go and show your mom that way? And I said, well, you know, my mother loves being shown that way. She actually gave me the permission to photograph her exposed. And so I think for them, they were so proud and excited to just be a part of it. Most of them came to the opening night, which was a gala event. So it was a

You know, it's like very just like colorful and just lots of different types of people and the music and the energy. So I think for them to experience that part of my life made them feel special. Because I admit, I haven't always been open to sharing that part of my life.

Freeing. It felt freeing and it felt supportive. And just to see the smiles. My brother stood in front of one of the paintings of my mother titled Dim All the Lights. She's wearing a red and black sweater and her hands are on the side. And it was quite beautiful to watch him engage with with the painting.

But he stood there just, and I was behind him speaking with other family members, but I was watching him on the side. And he kept gesturing the same movement as her for a long time. And he turned around and said, that's her. I know that, Stan. I know that's her. That's what she does. And that just made me feel so good. He had this glow and this light

And I think for him, you know, my mother's birthday was coming up, so it was like this energy. You know, my mother's birthday, October 27th. The opening was October 18th. So I think it was this energy. She was there, right? And there was this moment that you had to witness that you could see he was connecting to her.

Yeah. I think still today, I still believe, based on my experiences as an artist, that institutions are not comfortable with the nude black body if it's not stereotypically presented in ways of... I think I present the nude black body in a way of just like celebrating and honoring and putting forth like all of the strong qualities. I think unless it's about trauma.

Servitude, yeah, yeah, or entertainment, yeah. And I think – The gesturing of like us being performative for an audience is still the notions that the boxes in our compartmentalize some visual artists.

No, but it's not.

It just is. And it's the state of resting, the state of being, the state of existing and rooted and grounded in that space, I think, is somewhat threatening to people. of the ownership of it, taking accountability for their own space. I think when that is exuded, that sense of strength is oftentimes kind of felt with aggression or a threat.

I've had people say, oh, your images of the women are very confronting. And I said their gaze is very confronting.

They're looking straight out at you. They're demanding the space. They're not demanding to be validated. They're just letting you know that they're there. But with all that, too, there's still, you know, the other side is there. vulnerability and sensitivity. And I think it's just one-sided if you're going to look at it as that the women are confronting you.

But I think that comes from their understanding. Like, if you approach an image, I can't control what you bring to it. Because you're bringing these ideas of what you think of black women when they're sort of seated in the position of all knowingness. There's, you know, but we have been, we sat on thrones before. And I think, you know, we've been queens and kings.

And, you know, I think more of those images are now being put forth and celebrated, which is incredible. I love seeing that.

Yes.

Yeah, I do. It was, uh, An idea I had, I was already working with the images. I've seen like Renee Cox. There's been a lot of artists who work with luncheon and grass as a concept of shifting sort of the paradigm of sort of the black bodies and sort of these Western canon ideas.

histories and I wanted to lie myself and sort of it was through actually Ramir Bearden that I started thinking about Lunching in the Grass and thinking about what it would mean to have three black women

seated in this position and it came from a commission that was presented to me by Klaus Biesenbach at the time he was the curator of photography and media at MoMA and also the director of MoMA PS1 and so he commissioned me to present a body of work in the window of the modern. And I immediately knew when I saw the space that I wanted to do Le Dijonais.

One, because of the opportunity of the space that it was going to be located. Two, because I had the opportunity for the first time to shoot sites specifically at the MoMA and the Sculpture Garden with the Matisse in the background. And three, I knew that many people would see this.

And then it was going to be my largest painting to that date. At that point, I was only working like four by five or four by five feet or like no larger than six feet.

This was 10 by 20 feet.

Oh, Lunching in of the Grass, La Dijonais Saloon by Manet. And it was a very provocative painting, large oil painting of three figures, but it's actually four figures. Oftentimes they always speak about lunching in of the grass with – Three figures, but there's a fourth figure because there's one person that's bathing in the back.