Morley Conn

Whereas that's not reflective at all.

It's the underlying securities, getting back to that, the underlying securities are the true arbiter of the liquidity of that ETF at any point in time.

And so even institutions will err on that.

But one factor as well, Cameron, for institutions is many want to own an ETF

that they'll want to own up to 10% of the ETF.

So if they want some sort of critical mass position of 50 to 100 million, they do want to see more AUM.

That is a legitimate factor.

But just the fact that an ETF, the size or the amount of trade that's occurring, liquidity at any point in time is no true indicator to how much

Truly, we can trade in that ETF.

So a lot of misconceptions occur around that.

And then Cameron, I have to admit to you, one of the biggest misconceptions that I was guilty of when I originally heard the high yield bond funds, bond ETFs were coming to the marketplace.

I said, this will never fly.

This was back in like 2000, circa 2006, 2009 sort of era.

I thought, okay, you've got a less liquid, over-the-counter bond.

and you're gonna package it into a listed security, this will never fly, this will not work.

We come into the first dust up, first market type sell-off or very, very unfavorable market conditions, this won't fly.

I could not have been more wrong, guys, because through every disaster scenario, and we've had many disaster scenarios, every time the market has gone through difficult times, we have seen more liquidity come into both high-yield bond funds and as well ETFs in general.

It has truly amazed me, and I could not have been more wrong.

So even today when we look at...

What's going on on the private credit, private equity side?