Namwali Serpell

dog nipping at her ankle, which is just this racist assumption about what she is worth and what is worthy of her.

What I found really, frankly, startling was that as I was writing the book and researching the book, I was still encountering people's commentary along these lines.

And a kind of...

And this is what I described this as a kind of – it's a double-edged sword when it comes to Morrison because there are the people who secretly behind their hands say, well, she couldn't have been that good.

And then there are the people who say, well, obviously she was incredible and she is this icon of black excellence.

And in between those two competing views is the work itself, which just falls out of the picture.

Right.

Because what we're doing is we're battling about reputation.

We're battling about race again and gender again.

What we're not actually talking about are the words on the page.

And I found that very frustrating.

And part of my aim is to just redirect our attention to the miracle of what she's able to do with language and with the novel form.

So there's a lot of attempts by...

lexicographers of black English to define what it is.

They are seeing something that's happening in their families on the streets between black boys.

And it's a kind of back and forth movement.

Art of insults.

Like shade or the dozens.

Yeah.

And so you're going back and forth.