Nicholas Wade

So it was a really bad thing to be defeated.

So that's why men have these sort of two very strong drives in them to compete.

with each other and yet to cooperate for reasons of defense.

And to answer your question, I think this comes back to why an equal pay system goes so against the grain of human nature.

People don't want to just have a system where their efforts aren't rewarded.

They are sort of programmed to fight as hard as they can for the means to sustain and protect their family.

That's right, because the system is set up for freeloading.

You come into a kibbutz, if you get into a kibbutz, then you don't have to work anymore, or you can slack off.

The only thing that stops you, I guess, is public disapproval.

But nonetheless, that can go only so far.

So it's a very dangerous system when you don't reward people on the basis of their merit.

Yeah, it's very destabilizing for society, I think, because people have a strong sense of whether they're being fairly treated or not.

And if you work your heart out but get the same pay as the skiver next to you, then you feel wronged, and indeed you have been wronged.

I think it was partly the passing of generations.

So the guys who'd grown up in the kibbutz didn't have the same sort of zeal as their parents who'd founded the kibbutz.

Second thing was the kibbutzim was somewhat protected from the outside environment as long as the Israeli economy remained poor.

They weren't too much affected in a general way by Skivers because they recognized the danger and they screened

people very carefully before they were let into the kibbutz.

Right.

So the next generation, you insisted that things become more normal, as it were, and less idealistic.