Nilay Patel

Where does that come from?

That rate of reversal, just to unpack that, what you mean is someone goes to court, a state court judge decides there's an appeal, which costs money, and that goes up to an appeals court, and the appeals court is overturning that judge.

And you're saying that rate's going up or that rate is too high.

The reason I'm starting here is, I think you perceive this as well as I do, the lack of faith and trust in our institutions is kind of pervasive across American society.

And the legal system is just part of it now, right?

Like, especially if you show up and you don't have a lawyer, you don't have the money, and then it is a weird old guy and a judge, and then you're looking at the statistics and they're probably wrong, but you can't afford to appeal, or you're just reading the headlines every day.

It just feels like there's more chaos in the formal legal system

than ever.

And I wanted to start there because I do feel like the lack of faith in our corporate institutions is equally high.

And most people's experience with arbitration is, well, I just need cell phone service.

I'm not going to read this contract or these 15 contracts to get my cell phone service.

And there's a line here that says, well, I can't even sue AT&T if they get something wrong.

I'm going to end up in arbitration.

And that arbitration is...

Like, of course, it's just going to be against me.

Like, there's nothing I can do.

I'm just signing away my rights.

How do you feel about that in this context?

Because that feels like as big of a problem as anything.

We need to take a quick break.