Nosheen Iqbal

I want to talk also specifically about other criticisms you've received, namely of anti-Semitism.

Now, firstly, in 2014, you said that the US was subjugated by the Jewish lobby, which you have apologised for.

And then since then, there was a recent retweet which compared a photo of Benjamin Netanyahu to one of Adolf Hitler.

And another tweet where you draw a direct link between the Holocaust and what is happening in Gaza.

You wrote in February 2024 that October 7th victims weren't killed because of their Judaism, but in reaction to Israel's oppression.

Francesca, how do you explain those statements?

How do you address them?

Francesca, I hear what you're saying, but do you not accept that the language and the constant invocation of the Holocaust is, in one part, hurtful to Jewish people, and on the other,

clunky and perhaps undermines and counterproductive to the arguments you're trying to make.

No, what I'm saying is I don't doubt your intent, but the minute that one invokes the Holocaust, you almost lose the room, irrespective of how true it is.

But this is the point.

So then if you're...

As a sophisticated legal scholar, if you're trying to win hearts and minds, is language not important when we all agree that it really matters?

Coming up, are we living through the death of international law?

both since the ceasefire last October and especially since the outbreak of war in Iran, the world's attention has shifted away from Gaza.

What's the situation there day to day right now?

It's horrible.

What toll do you think it's had on you and your mental health, looking and studying and examining what's been happening in Gaza over the last couple of years?

Francesca, when listeners are taking in everything you've said and when we look at what we've seen and what's happening in the world and commentators saying that there's been a death of international law and that when you look at what's happening, not just in Gaza, Ukraine, Venezuela, it's a collapse of the rules-based order.

What hope is there that there will be accountability and what could it look like or what will it look like?