Oswald Oschin

And the cover of this book, Muskism, features the trail of a rocket against a deep blue sky.

What did you learn from your conversation about Muskism, about space and ambitions to go to space amongst Elon and Jeff Bezos?

Yeah, I think, I mean, that book really talks about sort of Elon Musk's political ideology and compares it kind of to Henry Ford.

I actually think this other new book out by Adam Becker, who's a phenomenal science journalist, he actually studied physics himself, is really good.

It's called More Everything Forever.

And there's this great chapter at the end of the book that basically just decimates, you know,

Elon Musk's theories on Mars and explains why we absolutely will never live on Mars and why this is just like a sort of deluded fantasy.

And I thought it was really illuminating.

That's not to say that these space projects aren't potentially worth it.

I mean, I think...

They could be valuable.

You know, we could, I think reusable rockets would be obviously very valuable.

Maybe we'll put the data centers in space.

But I think that a lot of people, including Elon Musk, also just use these sort of grand plans and Bezos use these grand plans for going to space and conquering space to mythologize themselves and raise lots of money and, you know, sort of don't, ultimately their visions will not be realized.

I mean, I think one part of your point, though, needs a little clarification, which is like, SpaceX, Elon put all of his own money into the company, right?

It wasn't like, you know, oh, I'm just gambling other people's money here.

Well, isn't it about to go public?

And aren't we changing the rules for it to kind of...

you know, be added to index funds and things like, I mean, I, I don't, it's not, this is not the founding of the company.

Yeah, sure.