Pam Belluck
Appearances
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
New York's governor, Kathy Hochul, has made this a real strong point.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
And they have become both one of the biggest legal developments in the abortion access space and also a major reason why women in states with abortion bans are still able to get access to abortion.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
She said, no way, no how, we are not sending Dr. Carpenter to Louisiana. So that's where the case stands at the moment. Again, sort of a standoff. It's possible that Louisiana will try to go to a New York court and challenge New York's refusal to extradite, but they haven't done that yet. But it certainly sends a chilling shot across the bow to all the other jail law providers who are doing this.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Yeah, I think most people expect that there will be a next step, that these are supposed to be test cases to basically try to undercut the protection of shield laws. So most people expect that Texas and or Louisiana will keep pursuing this. They will end up in federal court, possibly the Supreme Court, and they will try to say that the SHIELD laws are unconstitutional.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
And there may also be a challenge to the question of whether a state can decide not to extradite someone who's been criminally charged in another state. So basically, this is going to end up as a showdown where this whole concept of shield laws, which is largely untested, will end up being run through the mill of the federal courts. And we'll see if they're allowed to stand.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
So there are a few different legal arguments that the states can use, but the one that seems to come up the most often is that the Constitution requires states to basically respect each other's laws. They have to cooperate with each other. And in this case, the provision that they cite is called the Full Faith in Credit Clause.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Well, there are exceptions to the full faith and credit clause. And one of those exceptions is that if one state has a really deeply held public policy objective, that public policy objective overrides a contradictory law in another state. That's going to be one way that the legal argument is going to play out. There could be others.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
I would expect lawyers on both sides of this argument to be very creative and to think of lots of different legal and procedural routes once it comes to federal court, because that's what we've seen with other abortion cases.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
So almost immediately after Roe was overturned, you have conservative states, red states, putting into place abortion bans that were and are very strict. So they make abortion illegal in almost all cases. There are a few exceptions. And they have penalties for anybody who is providing abortion. Right. helping people travel for an abortion. To states where it's legal.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Well, you know, of course, we don't know exactly what would happen to Dr. Carpenter, but the charges and the cases against her could result in jail time, steep financial penalty and preventing her from continuing this work. And if we were to see these shield laws get struck down by the Supreme Court, then things will be different.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Certainly some providers who are sending abortion pills to states with bans will stop doing that. Others will probably continue, even though they'd be taking even greater risk than they're taking now. And the abortion landscape in America that's already been rewritten after Roe was overturned is going to be rewritten once again.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
And I think we're going to see even starker divisions between states with abortion bans and states that protect abortion. But even if the Supreme Court upholds the legality of SHIELD laws, that doesn't mean that the practice of sending abortion pills to states with abortion bans is just going to continue without additional protection. ways to challenge it.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
So you're likely to see anti-abortion advocates looking for new ways to try to stop access to abortion pills. And you're likely to see abortion rights advocates looking for new ways to try to protect and expand access to abortion pills.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Yeah, I think a lot of people who were watching this subject and familiar with it also anticipated that this would happen because, you know, when you think about it, there just aren't very many types of medical care that differ so dramatically from state to state.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
So it always seemed like it was going to be problematic to have one state try to ban abortion and think that that would somehow prevent women in that state from having access to abortion. And I think what we're seeing now, this really fierce division between states, was something that a lot of people foresaw.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
To states where it's legal, exactly. And this raises some legal questions for providers in blue states. Are they putting themselves at risk if they provide abortion to a patient from a red state with an abortion ban?
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
So what starts to develop are these laws which basically say If you provide an abortion to a patient from a state with an abortion ban, we will protect you. Hence, shield law. Exactly.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
So a shield law is basically a cooperation blockade. So it says here in our shield law state, we will not cooperate with another state that is trying to sue or prosecute a resident in our state who isn't involved in an abortion. So that's really starkly different from the way states usually do cooperate.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
And usually, you know, one state files charges against somebody in another state, and the state where that person is will extradite that person, will share records, will respond to subpoenas. But under SHIELD laws, abortion providers and people involved in providing abortions to people from red states are protected.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
And the officials in those shield law states are required not to cooperate, not to extradite.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Exactly. So the first SHIELD law that passed protected providers who served patients who traveled from states with abortion bans to the blue state. But of course, providers in blue states who were making abortion available to people who came to them were only serving part of the need for abortion access. A lot of women seeking abortions can't travel for one reason or another. It's expensive.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
It's very time consuming. And there's also, you know, explaining to everybody around them in their community, why are you suddenly leaving the state for a few days?
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
And for many women, there is an easier and more preferable pathway to getting an abortion, and that's through abortion medication early in pregnancy. And this has become a much more common way of getting an abortion, so much so that even before Roe was overturned, more than half of abortions in this country were being carried out with abortion pills.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Right. And before the pandemic, the FDA had regulations that required patients to go to a doctor or another abortion provider to pick up the mifepristone, the first drug, in person. And that, of course, was limiting for people. Not everybody can go to a clinic. Not every doctor is a certified prescriber.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
But during the pandemic, the FDA started to change those rules and allowed the medications to be prescribed by telemedicine without seeing a doctor.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
and mailed to wherever the patient was. So after Roe was overturned, there was a realization that you could send abortion pills in the mail to any state, including states with bans. And that's why several states start to adopt either new shield laws or amended shield laws that explicitly state
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
say that they will protect an abortion provider who is prescribing and sending abortion pills through the mail to patients in states with bands.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
It's definitely riskier for the providers, for sure. I think these types of laws are really unusual and they really haven't been tested. So it's a question whether they will ultimately stand. I think that's why you don't see that many abortion providers doing it.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
It takes a kind of special personality and somebody who's comfortable with that level of risk. Many of these providers are people who are kind of more advanced in their careers and maybe their children are grown and they just feel like they have a little bit less to lose.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Usually some of them have kind of protected their assets and put them in trust, but still they are absolutely taking a lot of chances. And they know that. They're well aware of that. I mean, they go into this eyes open because they are really very committed to providing this access and they see it as a really important avenue. And it has become that. Shield law providers are now sending...
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
probably more than 10,000 pills a month to women in states with abortion bans.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
This is part of the reason. And these SHIELD laws have put red states in a situation where they are trying to figure out how to stop these medications from flowing into their states. And for a while, they've been looking for cases that would allow them to try to challenge these shield laws. And eventually, they found it.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Yeah, so it's actually two cases from two different states. They just happened to involve the same New York doctor, Dr. Margaret Carpenter. Dr. Carpenter lives in New Paltz, New York, and she has been a longtime reproductive health provider. And under SHIELD laws, she's been prescribing abortion pills to patients in all 50 states.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
So the first case is actually a civil suit that was brought against Dr. Carpenter, and that suit accuses Dr. Carpenter of prescribing and sending abortion medication to a 20-year-old woman in Texas last summer. And it says that after the woman took the pills, she asked her partner to take her to the emergency room because she was bleeding.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Now, it's worth noting that medication abortion is very safe and that bleeding is part of what happens during a medication abortion process because it is the pregnancy tissue being expelled. And so it's not that uncommon for women to wonder if they're bleeding at an appropriate level and not.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
There, apparently, her partner learned that she was nine weeks pregnant, and he suspected that she wasn't just having a miscarriage. So he went back to their home, and he found the medications with Dr. Carpenter's name on the prescription, and he reported this to the attorney general's office.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
And so in December of last year, the attorney general of Texas sued Dr. Carpenter for basically violating Texas's abortion ban. And so under the SHIELD law, Dr. Carpenter and her lawyers did not respond to the civil suit. They didn't show up in court. They didn't file any sort of response.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
And so as a result, a judge in the case has ordered a fine of about $113,000 and also issued a permanent injunction that says Dr. Carpenter is prevented from sending abortion pills to patients in Texas again.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Right. So this is where the showdown with the SHIELD law is being set up, right? Texas judge issues a punishment and now Texas wants to enforce its punishment. And so this spring, the state of Texas goes to New York, to the county where Dr. Carpenter lives, and it tries to file a document that says, we are asking you in New York to compel Dr. Carpenter to pay up and to honor the injunction.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
And the New York clerk says, hold up. No, we are not even accepting this court document from you. We're not even going to let you establish a case number here. We are just, you know, not having it under the shield law.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Well, it's definitely an unusual thing for a county clerk to be doing in most cases. But in this situation, New York has been one of the states that has really made a big deal out of their shield law and their determination to protect abortion rights in this way. And so they have educated and trained officials across the state. to be ready if something like this comes across their desk.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
In this case, the county clerk was ready and said, sorry, we are stopping you before you even reach the courthouse door. So right now we have a legal standoff, right? We have a civil judgment in Texas that Texas is not able to enforce.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Yeah, so that case is from Louisiana and it's a criminal case that was brought in January of this year. And in that case, a grand jury in Louisiana indicted Dr. Carpenter on charges of providing abortion-inducing drugs. And, you know, as with the Texas case, we really don't know a lot of details about the Louisiana case.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Yeah, a lot has been happening during this time beyond the different ballot measures that we've been hearing and different state laws and things like that. One of the major developments has been these new legal protections called SHIELD laws.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
The description of what happened is coming directly from authorities in the states themselves. So it's just worth noting that they are painting a picture of how these cases unfolded in a What the district attorney in Louisiana has said is that there was a teenager, someone under 18. Her mother helped her order abortion pills. It turned out that Dr. Carpenter was the prescriber.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
and mailed those pills. And the district attorney says that the teenager was sort of pressed by her mother to take the abortion pills. And then at some point, the teenager called 911 and was taken to a hospital. We don't really know why. And that's where authorities learned that she had taken abortion pills.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
Dr. Carpenter has been indicted for providing this medication. And the mother of the teenager has also been indicted and has pleaded not guilty.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
So when one person in one state is indicted by another state, then that state that's indicted them tries to extradite them, tries to get them to come in and face the criminal charges in court because otherwise that case can't proceed. You know, criminal cases, different from civil cases, the defendant has to be there.
The Daily
A New Front Line for Abortion Rights
So if she doesn't show up and they don't try to force her to show up, then it won't proceed. Louisiana has done that. They've issued an extradition warrant.