Paul Krugman

That is, if you want to understand that, I think you need a model of the mind of Donald Trump.

There really isn't very much of a constituency behind that except that he wants it.

I really see business kind of hates it.

But economic nationalism, more sophisticated economic nationalism is definitely on the rise.

I mean, the Biden administration was far more

economically nationalist than any American administration we've seen for decades.

Europe is clearly moving somewhat in that direction.

And the reason is mainly, I think at some level, the world is a scarier place.

We now are, you know, who thought that, that,

large steel conventional warfare was going to make a comeback in the 21st century.

And now it has.

And now you think that, well, we need to have capabilities, either domestically or in our close allies, that mean that we can't be shut out, that we have the ability.

And if possible, we're going to try and deny this stuff to people that we don't consider our friends.

And that is going to fragment the world.

And also, by the way, worth saying, and I know we need to get questions.

I'm the one who said that.

One of the things that is also true is that, to an important extent, technology can actually substitute for globalization.

If you need customer service, instead of getting somebody in Bangalore on the line, you instead are talking to a chatbot.

And that's a real change in dimension.

So we may be headed for a much more fragmented world, both because it's less necessary to have global trade and because we're much more afraid, with good reason, of being too dependent upon other countries.