Prof. Chris French

So then they crunched the numbers and they found that on average, narcissism seemed to be going up.

Yeah, I guess you could say that. And not only that, Keith and Jean also looked at all the stuff that was going on in the culture. So besides the reality TV stuff, stuff that they thought was evidence of people getting more narcissistic. So they pointed out that more people are getting cosmetic surgery. Parents have begun giving their children more unique names.

And so they concluded we are in a narcissism epidemic. Gene Twenge published a book called Generation Me, and all of this just blew up. It became huge. There was a ton of media attention on this.

So Lee is a dad, and on this particular day, he was home alone with his six-month-old son. Mm-hmm. The baby was crying. And Lee was feeling really annoyed that the baby was fussing while he was trying to get some of his own work done. And he found himself raising his voice at the baby. And then his wife walked in, heard this, and she's like, what the hell? You're yelling at an infant.

Hustling her way up the narcissism spectrum.

Well, okay. What you just said is exactly what this other academic I spoke to felt like at the time, too. Her name is Kali Treznefsky. She's another psychologist. She's currently a professor at the University of California, Davis. Mm-hmm. So when she first saw this paper back when it came out, it made her really uneasy for a lot of the reasons you just said.

This idea of, you know, everybody is increasing in narcissism and like this generation is just going to end up in an awful place because they can't take criticism and they're all just full of themselves, out for themselves and don't care about anyone else. Those are quite strong statements to be making that leads to these stereotypes like, oh, yeah, there you are. There's that lazy youth again.

So Kali, I mean, at this time, she, because she was, you know, a little skeptical, but, you know, also just like, if this is true, we need good, we need a lot of data behind it because we are so prone to this confirmation bias where we think the younger generation sucks. So she found this other data set. It's called Monitoring the Future. And they survey high school seniors every year.

They've been doing it since the mid-70s. It's not the NPI, but they do ask questions about things like, how do you see yourself compared to others? How satisfied are you with yourself? How competent are you? So questions that could be related to an inflated ego.

So she and her co-author looked at students' answers to those questions between 1976 and 2006.

They saw no narcissism epidemic. Yeah, so we found that most things didn't change.

Yeah, the high school seniors in 1976 were just as likely to say, like, I'm not that special or I'm kind of special as the high school seniors in 2006. Oh. So she didn't find any evidence in this data of kids really changing.

And so basically ever since, there's been back and forth in the literature about what was actually going on over this time period. Yeah. Fast forwarding, what's really interesting is... is about what's happening today. Scientists have kept doing these analyses since this. Yeah. You know, that data was up to 2006. It's 2024. Yeah.

And so we do have newer studies where they've done something similar looking at newer crops of college kids. Right. And actually, what they're seeing now is that narcissism has been going down.

Even Keith, who was on Team Narcissism Epidemic, remember? Yeah. He was like, yeah, it's going down. At least what the NPI can measure, that grandiose narcissism.

And they got in a huge fight about it.

So the debate here, I mean, it's funny. At this point, lots of scientists seem to agree. And it's not just Kali. It's not just Keith. But also there's another group from the University of Vienna. They just put out this big meta-analysis. All these different researchers in this space agree that there is currently no evidence that narcissism is up compared to a few decades ago. Hmm.

If there's a controversy, it's whether there was a bump for a while.

Well, it's hard to say because not everybody agrees that there was this bump. That's still controversial. And Keith now says, like, look, at this point, it's an archaeological question because it's over.

But so far what we've been talking about is this test that nerds use to measure, you know, kind of normal levels of narcissism. We haven't been talking about pathological narcissism, which is what Leigh has. Right. And people with this can be really self-centered, hurtful, manipulative.

So after the break, we are going to turn back to that darker type of narcissism to talk about what's going on in their heads. And if you've got someone like this in your life, How can you deal with them? Ooh, coming up.

She said that kind of like tossed over her shoulder as she walked out the door.

Because he's like, why would she say that? Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, so we're moving to this pathological narcissism that goes way beyond us just kind of being our most arrogant selves. And I talked about this with psychologist and narcissism specialist Craig Malkin.

It's about being so self-centered so consistently that it actually interferes with your relationships, your ability to work, and can translate into some really crappy behaviors. Craig calls them the triple E.

That is the medical term for someone who is diagnosed as a narcissist.

So to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, the DSM, which is like the psychological Bible, says you need to display a pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy.

So to go back to Lee, who we heard from at the start of the show, this was the guy that had this big fight with his wife after he yelled at the baby and he got diagnosed with this. Okay. He told me that this desire to feel really special and important is a major thing that has driven him for years.

That's a hard mark to hit. And so it turns out that this drive to feel special doesn't always feel good. So one thing that might surprise people is that a lot of narcissists are not happy people.

But that's not... That's not what we find? No. I mean, one study found that a third of people with NPD have major depressive disorder. A fifth have generalized anxiety disorder, which is much higher than the general population.

Yeah, but that's the case. And it's actually something that Lee can really relate to because he's also been diagnosed with depression and anxiety alongside NPD. And a thing that Lee told me that really helped me see why you'd be so miserable as a narcissist is that his ego really can't handle any criticism.

This is pretty common with this disorder, by the way, being very sensitive to any criticism. And so when this happens to Lee, it just eats and eats at him.

And so he's always on the lookout for his ego getting dinged and like preemptively getting ready to fight.

You're looking for weaknesses in case you need to exploit them later?

It was really a huge moment for him because he's reading all these descriptions of what makes a narcissist, at least according to Dr. Google.

This is a pretty miserable way to live.

And that's not all. I mean, there's a review paper that found that they often suffer from feelings of meaninglessness. They're very critical of themselves and they struggle to express their emotions.

Yeah, I mean, so Lee, of course, had that question right after he had his moment of revelation because, like, the next thing he Googled was, like, cure for narcissistic personality disorder, right? And the results were disappointing. None.

So that's the treatment we have. Therapy. Talk therapy. Therapists might do things like try to help their patient be more aware of triggers that lead to narcissistic actions. One paper described what you can do as a therapist is move a patient from me mode to we mode. Okay. I mean, did Lee end up trying therapy? Yeah, he did start therapy. It was several months after the big fight with his wife.

And he's nodding along. So it's like you think you're special, which he definitely does think that. He's always believed he was destined for greatness. Another one is you are preoccupied with yourself. Yep. He keeps reading. Lack of empathy. That one definitely felt right. Was there an example that flashed in your mind? You're like, oh, that was the time when I was being unempathetic.

And when he went to see this therapist...

Uh-huh. Was that unusual for you, crying?

Did she ask you why you were crying?

Yeah. I mean, there's no magical transformation. He says he's still a narcissist. But over the years, it has helped him learn to put some space between his thoughts and his actions.

We really tried to run this down, but it's very hard to put numbers around it because there are no trials exclusively on people with NPD. Annoying. Yeah. And, you know, psychologists have said that people with NPD tend to drop out of therapy. So maybe that's one reason, you know, we don't have these. But... We do have some evidence that is promising in people who do stick it out.

There are some case studies showing that people with NPD can improve after two and a half to five years of therapy. And a lot of therapists that I talked to told me the same thing, that they have helped people with this disorder.

Yeah. So this question of how do you deal with a narcissist in your life is something that Craig, our psychologist from earlier, he specializes in. He sees a lot of people who come to therapy regularly. Oftentimes they come in trying to figure out if someone in their life is a narcissist and then what should they be doing about it.

And his number one tip is to not focus so much on the other person's diagnosis, but to figure out whether or not the relationship is working for you.

Right. So if you do decide the relationship is worth working on, you want to stay or let's say it's like a relative or boss. Craig has a few strategies. Right. They're based on this observation that you can actually boost empathy in people with narcissism. There's a body of research on this. And Craig has come up with some ways to basically exploit that.

So the first thing is something he calls an empathy prompt. And this is basically in your conversation with this person about why you're unhappy with their behavior. You sort of set it up by priming the other person to feel empathy for you while you're giving them feedback in this really particular way that could get through to someone with narcissism. So he gave me an example.

Say your partner is someone who can often act very dismissive of your ideas.

Wow.

Yeah. That's like a gunpowder-packed statement because it's so much about how much you value them.

In addition to this is what I'm not getting from you.

Wow.

Therapy bomb.

Maybe. Wendy, because? You love being the center of attention and people always love your story. Okay, okay. What other tips did Craig have? Craig kind of had different strategies for like how stubbornly narcissistic people are. So for someone that's like maybe not going to melt from the empathy prompt, what he suggests is this thing called catching good. So here's what he means by that.

He was on the playground in school. He was watching this kid named Tony climbing on a jungle gym. And he saw that Tony was going to try to hang upside down by his legs. And he had a bad feeling about this. He didn't think Tony was strong enough to go upside down. So he told Tony to stop. But Tony did it anyway.

He's like, say you think you have a narcissistic boss, but one day they do like one nice thing. Maybe they take you out for lunch. They listen to an idea that you had. You can tell them.

Yes. He ties it to like, here's the outcome that will benefit you. Yes. So if that doesn't work and the empathy prompts don't work and you can't, you know, this person's still in your life. There is one last strategy that I think we're talking about. And especially because this is something that the Internet loves talking about. And this is called gray rocking.

So this is the idea that like if you're in a fight with a narcissist, you're You basically become so still and so boring and quiet that you are acting like a gray rock. Oh.

We don't really have science here, but Craig says this is a tactic that people have found useful. The key is that you give the other person as little ammunition as possible.

Yeah, Craig was definitely like, that is something worth considering. And he also really wanted to relay to people that if you feel unsafe in your relationship, your priority should not be on using these techniques to improve communication. It should be on making sure you're safe.

Well, it's just been a good reminder that when we start to focus on ourselves too much, it can be harmful and it can actually like make you less happy. And it makes me really want to catch those moments where I'm doing that, where I'm like really spinning around about myself, my own life. legacy or what people think of me, noting when that's actually to a point where it's not helpful.

It's making me less happy than I would be otherwise. I think that's a takeaway that even someone who's scored low on the narcissism spectrum, not to brag, can take away. It's like especially low, I would say.

Even me can benefit from thinking about narcissism.

What were you thinking as a kid when he broke his arm?

I lucid dreamed. I realized I could lucid dream. It was a big deal.

Happy New Year, everyone. Happy holidays.

Little Kidley was so angry and upset in this moment that he actually remembers the teacher looking at him and saying, what's wrong with you? And at the time, of course, he didn't know. But as an adult, on this day in his bedroom after the fight with his wife, he's like, wait, now I know.

And now today as an influencer, Lee talks a lot about narcissists like him and how to live with them, deal with them. And he's part of this huge trend where people cannot stop talking about narcissists. There are even people saying that we're in a narcissism epidemic. And I'm hearing about narcissists just like coming out of the woodwork. You know, our bosses, our parents, celebrities.

It's even become, like, something that comedians joke about.

Yeah, so we'll put on our little mirrors because today on the show, we're going to find out what's really going on here. Is the world truly overrun with narcissists? Are they hosting science podcasts? Beloved science podcasts? How do you know if you're one or your boss or partner is one? And if you're stuck with a narcissist in your life, what do you do about it?

So people tend to throw around the word narcissism pretty willy-nilly. But first you have to know there is some different types here. So there's pathological narcissism. That's a trait where people constantly put themselves and their own needs above other people and their needs. And it's often associated with this lack of empathy.

If that describes you, you could get diagnosed potentially with narcissistic personality disorder. And Lee actually did get that diagnosis.

But she was absolutely right. Yeah. And we are going to get more into the details of that later in the episode. But there's also what's considered basically normal narcissism, where, you know, you're like a little focused on yourself. You're quite confident, maybe to the point of being arrogant. Maybe sometimes you think you're better than other people.

Yeah, and there's a spectrum. When it comes to the garden variety narcissism, that's usually what scientists or the media are talking about when they talk about a narcissism epidemic. This question of whether lots of us are moving farther and farther up this narcissism spectrum. Okay. So, are we? So, to answer that, we got to go back to where this all started.

Hey. Well, because you did the research. Fair enough. I have been doing the research. And, you know, what I quickly realized diving into all this is that on the internet, there's all these caricatures of what a narcissist is. But the reality is a lot more complicated and actually a lot more interesting. So to start, I want you to meet someone. This person is an actual narcissist. Oh.

We are going back to the late 90s, early 2000s.

That is W. Keith Campbell. He's a professor of psychology at the University of Georgia. But back then, he was a postdoc at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, along with another social scientist named Gene Twenge.

And a lot of what they were talking about was how the culture seemed to be changing.

I know, but I think right around then, a lot of people see that as an inflection point for certain things like reality TV. So Survivor debuted in 2000. Right around there is when American Idol started, America's Next Top Model. It's like fame, fame, fame, being on TV, being special. Yes.

So Keith and Jean were like, something's changing here, and it seems like people are changing in some fundamental way.

So they really wanted to find this out, and they really wanted to get some data behind this idea. They were becoming more narcissistic. And luckily, there is this test that measures some narcissistic traits. It's called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory. And what it's meant to do is to measure these grandiose narcissistic traits. Basically, how great you think you are.

Don't you want me to take it too? How special I am on the narcissism scale. Before we take it, do you have any... Do you have any guesses who will be higher on the narcissism scale?

You never know. You never know. Okay. So the instructions are to read each pair of statements below and place an X by the one that comes closest to describing your feelings and beliefs about yourself. You may feel that neither statement describes you well, but pick the one that comes closest.

It's not the nerd personality index. Lack of empathy, Rose. Oh, no. Okay, let me put the link in the chat.

I'm going to say not good.

Mm-hmm. The thought of ruling the world frightens the hell out of me versus if I ruled the world, it would be a better place. I think about this a lot. It's number two. If I ruled the world, it would be a better place. Yeah, yeah. It's not a hard bar right now, is it?

I am no better or no worse than most people, or I think I am a special person.

I just want to be reasonably happy, or I want to amount to something in the eyes of the world.

Yeah, I feel confident in this one. The other day I told someone this story. I was like, the other day I ate a bunch of pineapple. It was really sweet. And then I had a bagel. And the bagel was really sour in comparison to the pineapple. It was like, great story. So that is a sometimes good storyteller. I actually think everybody likes to hear my stories. Oh, okay.

He's a social media influencer. The touche. That jump sounds very appropriate. Could you start by introducing yourself to our audience?

People sometimes believe what I tell them, or I can make anybody believe anything I want them to. I wish.

So when they have used this test in sort of a general sample, just so you know, is in college students. That's kind of how it's been normed.

15.

Yeah. Do you want to hear about standard deviation?

That's about seven points on either side. So, you know, eight to 22. So that's like you're in like the middle chunk of the population. Okay.

Less than eight, you're really on a tail end of like, you're kind of a shrinking violet.

More than 22, you're getting up there in your narcissistic traits. All right. How did we do it? You got 17. Ooh. And I got 10.

You're a little higher up on the normal. Okay. Okay. Also, I just have to tell you this, Wendy. I found this paper published by Dr. Drew from Loveline. Do you know him? No. No, no, I don't. Oh, okay. It was this radio show where they answered sex questions. It was, like, big in the 2000s. They always had celebrity guests come on.

And it turns out this whole time Dr. Drew was giving the NPI to celebrities that came onto the show. And he published a paper to see, like, are celebrities more narcissistic than other people? Which kind of celebrity is the most narcissistic? Oh, okay. And just for fun, I'll tell you that they found the celebrity that had the highest score was... Radio hosts. Reality TV stars.

Reality TV stars got on average 19.5, which is so funny because that is like part of what kicked us all off for Keith and Jean. Okay, so with all that in mind...

And Lee wasn't always self-aware about this, but something happened about eight years ago that changed his whole world.

Yeah, it checks out. I mean, that seems like just narcissistic enough. But to take this all back to Keith and Jean sitting in their basement.

Yeah, that's the whole point. That's why we took this test. Yes, of course. So the scientists think that people are getting more narcissistic, right? And so what they do is they find all these studies where people have taken this test. So they were able to find data on more than 16,000 college students taking this personality test between 1979 and 2006.

Over the last 50 years, there's been a huge amount of research on telepathy published in peer-reviewed journals, which has proved to be repeatable and seems to me irrefutable in that it's showing that telepathy really happens. The problem is that the critics simply aren't interested in the evidence because their belief system is that this is impossible.

I accept that there are some really interesting and challenging aspects ideas out there for skeptics. I mean, some of the evidence isn't easy to dismiss. And certainly when you get skeptics who say there is no evidence for the existence of telepathy or precognition and so on, that's just nonsense.

I am indeed, yeah. I don't get invited to parties at all because of my overwhelmingly negative personality.

It's based on the idea that if there is such a thing as telepathy, it may well be that it's a very faint signal in comparison to all the background noise.

they look like half ping pong balls one over each eye and you you obviously light could still get in there through the gaps so you use cotton wool just to to plug that up and then you tape over the eyes and then you have a red light bulb so if they open their eyes all they'll see is red so it's not that you've got no sensory input but you've just got a uniform sensory input

And basically, it's a very, very nice, comfortable, relaxing situation to be in. And people typically report that after a while, they relax and their head begins to fill with imagery, you know?

And the sender would try to concentrate on that target image and send the information to the receiver.

Just by thinking about it real hard, exactly.

No, because I've had my fingers burnt with meta-analyses before. I mean, meta-analysis, I think, is a very useful tool. And I think we should take this latest meta-analysis seriously. But whether I'm going to say, yes, okay, I'm convinced now, I'm going to hold back a little bit because there have been so many twists and turns in this tale.

And I read that and thought, oh my God, wow, this really looks like very powerful evidence. So what are these analyses doing wrong?

It produced absolutely no effects whatsoever to support the existence of precognition.