Professor David Farrier

And in many cases, you know,

harmful trajectories that species are taking and becoming maladapted to the world that we're making for them, it carries that sense of ache and loss, the soul nostalgia that Albright talks about.

But it also carries that sense of hope, that conviction and commitment, what ought to be.

It just exploded on the page for me because that encapsulates this extraordinary moment we inhabit of loss and hope

together we can't afford not to hope we can't afford to let go uh but we need to hold on to that sense of what has been lost at the same time and what what language do we have for you know thinking about with a kind of emotional color spectrum that that involves it's such an extraordinarily unique sensation and an emotion to inhabit but it's also you know to do with our sense of time we're carrying that sense of the world that was

And it can no longer be, but also the world that could be in its place together.

So for me, that idea of what ought to be is very much akin to that notion of kinship time.

of thinking in terms of relationship and thriving.

And yeah, it's one of the things in the book I think I carried away with me.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's what's so wonderful about it is the richness and the way that it maybe lands differently at different points in time.

I think what it makes me think of right now is, you know, with all the talk about

budgets that's been going on recently is, you know, for so many people, and it's not always for so many people, that's maybe the wrong way to put it, but it's just an assumption baked into our societies that what ought to be is infinite growth.

That is unquestioned.

And yet, of course, that is unsustainable.

We know this.

And, you know, I think what ought to be rather is, you know, a rethinking of what growth looks like.

a willingness to take seriously the arguments of the degrowth movement, which is not about... You could.

Yeah, it's about rethinking how energy circulates in a society.

Kate Raworth, the donor of Economics Genius, I think it's a wonderful book.

says that we need to stop thinking of markets as mechanisms and think of them more as organisms, as embedded in their environments, as responsive to their environments.