Professor Katriona O'Sullivan

Yeah.

Yeah, and you've probably got 10 problems then because you're in debt, you're robbing, you've guilt, you've shame.

If you're a woman, you've got added layers of what you've done.

I suppose like we all look for pleasure.

We all are looking to feel good.

But some people who are in pain will look for pleasure to replace the pain more than others.

And then in terms of like poor communities like mine,

Everyone was drinking and drugging because like it took them away from the miserable life that they're in.

And then when you the things you have to do to do that, to keep in the drugs, the crime, the whatever, whatever you have to do, the prostitution, whatever.

That adds then to the pain.

So you're in this cycle of pain and drugs.

But there's also another piece of that that we, because that's quite simple because it's like, oh, we just remove the pain then and heal the pain.

But sometimes there's biological changes that then happen.

Yeah.

So there's, but also as a consequence of the drugs.

So you can sensitize your brains to drugs as well.

So like then you're automatically always on the lookout for drugs, even when the pain is gone.

That's why people relapse, Ray, because they've become more sensitized to stimuli.

They don't have to actually no longer be in pain and people will still relapse.

So like it's really complex.