Quincy Jones

The sweet wheat section. We were very young then, and I was 18 when I went with that band. And you'd bounce back between that or trying to figure out how to make that work with Mogan David Wine or Manischewitz. It was ridiculous.

The sweet wheat section. We were very young then, and I was 18 when I went with that band. And you'd bounce back between that or trying to figure out how to make that work with Mogan David Wine or Manischewitz. It was ridiculous.

I look at the whole book and the whole life, I guess, as if it's like somebody else. I don't know where I had the spirit or the stick-to-itiveness to write something like that then. Because, you know, number one, I knew that music was my ticket out of this... other life that I had, you know, the Doug life and a dysfunctional family life.

I look at the whole book and the whole life, I guess, as if it's like somebody else. I don't know where I had the spirit or the stick-to-itiveness to write something like that then. Because, you know, number one, I knew that music was my ticket out of this... other life that I had, you know, the Doug life and a dysfunctional family life.

And it was like a wonderland to arrange and the idea of orchestration and arrangements and composition. And that to this day is what my core skill is as an arranger and orchestrator and composer. I was just so happy to have a surrounding and environment where that was spawned, that was encouraged all the time.

And it was like a wonderland to arrange and the idea of orchestration and arrangements and composition. And that to this day is what my core skill is as an arranger and orchestrator and composer. I was just so happy to have a surrounding and environment where that was spawned, that was encouraged all the time.

Terry, by the way, I think that's the first recorded solo I ever had on record. The first record I was ever involved with, and I think it's one of the only solos I have on record.

Terry, by the way, I think that's the first recorded solo I ever had on record. The first record I was ever involved with, and I think it's one of the only solos I have on record.

I don't know. I was getting more and more pulled into the quicksand of writing. And then about a year or so later, after we begged Hamp to get Gigi Grice and Benny Golson and Clifford Brown in the band, sitting next to Art Farmer and Clifford Brown and Benny Bailey helped me get into writing quickly. Clifford Brown was probably one of the greatest trumpet players that ever lived. Unbelievable.

I don't know. I was getting more and more pulled into the quicksand of writing. And then about a year or so later, after we begged Hamp to get Gigi Grice and Benny Golson and Clifford Brown in the band, sitting next to Art Farmer and Clifford Brown and Benny Bailey helped me get into writing quickly. Clifford Brown was probably one of the greatest trumpet players that ever lived. Unbelievable.

We had just come back from two State Department tours with Dizzy Gillespie. The first was in the Middle East, a place in Pakistan, right there, you know, Abadan and Iran and Syria, Beirut. And we came back to the White House Correspondents Ball in Washington. They liked what we had done. And so they sent us off to South America after that.

We had just come back from two State Department tours with Dizzy Gillespie. The first was in the Middle East, a place in Pakistan, right there, you know, Abadan and Iran and Syria, Beirut. And we came back to the White House Correspondents Ball in Washington. They liked what we had done. And so they sent us off to South America after that.

And naturally, a black man's going to play all these kamikaze places. They'd have the Cypriots stoning the embassy in Athens, and they'd rush us over from Ankara, Turkey, get in there quick, you know, almost like ground troops, and send a black man over there. And so the same students that stoned the embassy were all down front in the front row and everything else.

And naturally, a black man's going to play all these kamikaze places. They'd have the Cypriots stoning the embassy in Athens, and they'd rush us over from Ankara, Turkey, get in there quick, you know, almost like ground troops, and send a black man over there. And so the same students that stoned the embassy were all down front in the front row and everything else.

It was pretty scary, really, because we didn't know what their conflict was all about, really. And after the... concert, the same students started crawling over the top of the stage and straight towards the band. I said, this is it now. We're in big trouble here. The same ones who were stoning the embassy. And they grabbed Dizzy. We had no idea what was on their mind.

It was pretty scary, really, because we didn't know what their conflict was all about, really. And after the... concert, the same students started crawling over the top of the stage and straight towards the band. I said, this is it now. We're in big trouble here. The same ones who were stoning the embassy. And they grabbed Dizzy. We had no idea what was on their mind.

And they put him on their shoulders, and they were walking around saying, Dizzy, Dizzy, Dizzy. I was so relieved. It was terrifying to watch them come towards the band, especially with the reputation they had in the papers the day before. And so we went down to, getting back to Latin America, we went down to Argentina first, in Buenos Aires.

And they put him on their shoulders, and they were walking around saying, Dizzy, Dizzy, Dizzy. I was so relieved. It was terrifying to watch them come towards the band, especially with the reputation they had in the papers the day before. And so we went down to, getting back to Latin America, we went down to Argentina first, in Buenos Aires.

And after our first concert, we met a beautiful young musician named Lalo Schiffrin. He was a teenager then, too. And he had told me all about... He'd studied with Olivier Messiaen, and that's where I first heard the name Nadia Boulanger, and it just sent electricity through me. He also told... We also recorded down there with Asta Piazzolla, who was like a very experimental...

And after our first concert, we met a beautiful young musician named Lalo Schiffrin. He was a teenager then, too. And he had told me all about... He'd studied with Olivier Messiaen, and that's where I first heard the name Nadia Boulanger, and it just sent electricity through me. He also told... We also recorded down there with Asta Piazzolla, who was like a very experimental...

a composer working on what they call a modern city tango. And then he warned us about the new movement that was coming out of Brazil. And we were very excited about hearing this new music. It was Bossa Nova. And when we got to Brazil, Dizzy played with the rhythm section, Samba rhythm section at the Gloria Hotel one afternoon. And sitting in the front row were three teenagers,

a composer working on what they call a modern city tango. And then he warned us about the new movement that was coming out of Brazil. And we were very excited about hearing this new music. It was Bossa Nova. And when we got to Brazil, Dizzy played with the rhythm section, Samba rhythm section at the Gloria Hotel one afternoon. And sitting in the front row were three teenagers,

a married couple, Astrid and Joao Gilberto, and Antonio Carlos Jobim, who started a whole Bossa Nova movement. And ironically, the first record that came out in the United States was Desafinado. And the melody on the first, just the opening string was just almost pure Dizzy Gillespie. That's why they referred to it at that time as jazz ensemble. before they even called it Bossa Nova.

a married couple, Astrid and Joao Gilberto, and Antonio Carlos Jobim, who started a whole Bossa Nova movement. And ironically, the first record that came out in the United States was Desafinado. And the melody on the first, just the opening string was just almost pure Dizzy Gillespie. That's why they referred to it at that time as jazz ensemble. before they even called it Bossa Nova.

And so we came home all excited about this new music. They had moved the clave beat, which is really like the foundation of Latin music, straight up and down Latin America. That's the foundation of the clave beat. It's the guiding force. And I wanted to record some of this stuff.

And so we came home all excited about this new music. They had moved the clave beat, which is really like the foundation of Latin music, straight up and down Latin America. That's the foundation of the clave beat. It's the guiding force. And I wanted to record some of this stuff.

So I made a thing called Big Band Bossa Nova, and I wrote into about 20 minutes, this is 1962, a tune called Soul Bossa Nova. We had Brazilian rhythm section and everything else, and I guess 38 years passed. Now, Austin Powers is this huge star, and he's stuck with this thing. This is his theme forever. Da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da.

So I made a thing called Big Band Bossa Nova, and I wrote into about 20 minutes, this is 1962, a tune called Soul Bossa Nova. We had Brazilian rhythm section and everything else, and I guess 38 years passed. Now, Austin Powers is this huge star, and he's stuck with this thing. This is his theme forever. Da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da.

And it's amazing, because they did two movies with the theme, and he opened it with a marching band playing it the first time. Now, he wants me to be in the next film.

And it's amazing, because they did two movies with the theme, and he opened it with a marching band playing it the first time. Now, he wants me to be in the next film.

Well, it was camp. But, you know, it doesn't matter, though, because, you know, a tune like that was kind of a campy tune anyway. So I loved it, you know. I was very happy that he found a whole new... a home for this, you know, in this generation.

Well, it was camp. But, you know, it doesn't matter, though, because, you know, a tune like that was kind of a campy tune anyway. So I loved it, you know. I was very happy that he found a whole new... a home for this, you know, in this generation.

Well, it was sort of a challenge, really, because I had come back from Europe, and I had lost a lot of money, and I had to say, Irving Green, the president of Mercury, said, come over here as an A&R man, because you are an artist on Mercury anyway, an artist in repertoire. He hired me, and he promoted me to vice president. And

Well, it was sort of a challenge, really, because I had come back from Europe, and I had lost a lot of money, and I had to say, Irving Green, the president of Mercury, said, come over here as an A&R man, because you are an artist on Mercury anyway, an artist in repertoire. He hired me, and he promoted me to vice president. And

During that time, I was recording all the divas and, you know, Nina Simone and Sarah Vaughan and Shirley Horne, Donnie Washington. And we were doing things with Robert Farnes, big string, expensive dates and so forth. And they were beautiful musical albums, but...

During that time, I was recording all the divas and, you know, Nina Simone and Sarah Vaughan and Shirley Horne, Donnie Washington. And we were doing things with Robert Farnes, big string, expensive dates and so forth. And they were beautiful musical albums, but...

Irving said to me one time, he says, you know, all the pop guys are saying you and Hal Mooney, who are the arrangers, are budget busters because you do all this big music. But we need some more help with the bottom line with hit records. And I was a little presumptuous and said, well, I don't think it's such a big deal to make a pop hit.

Irving said to me one time, he says, you know, all the pop guys are saying you and Hal Mooney, who are the arrangers, are budget busters because you do all this big music. But we need some more help with the bottom line with hit records. And I was a little presumptuous and said, well, I don't think it's such a big deal to make a pop hit.

And he says, well, why don't you start making something then? And we were at a meeting at the Oxford House where we had A&R meetings regularly in Chicago.

And he says, well, why don't you start making something then? And we were at a meeting at the Oxford House where we had A&R meetings regularly in Chicago.

and he said here's a tape that joe glazer sent me and his friend the fight manager somebody has a niece that sang something just say you listen to it and we'll send it back you know i grabbed it and uh i thought i said i'd like to try this because she had a great sound as far as a rock singer in those days she could sing really in tune she was 16 years old and uh we went back to new york and talked to joe glazer he said make her a star and you know all of that hollywood stuff and uh

and he said here's a tape that joe glazer sent me and his friend the fight manager somebody has a niece that sang something just say you listen to it and we'll send it back you know i grabbed it and uh i thought i said i'd like to try this because she had a great sound as far as a rock singer in those days she could sing really in tune she was 16 years old and uh we went back to new york and talked to joe glazer he said make her a star and you know all of that hollywood stuff and uh

We went in on a Saturday and we recorded two songs, It's My Party, and with a B-side written by Paul Anka, young Paul Anka called Danny. And on the way to Carnegie Hall, I saw Phil Spector. And Phil Spector said, I just cut a smash, man, with the crystals. Called It's My Party. I said, what? I had never experienced that kind of competition before.

We went in on a Saturday and we recorded two songs, It's My Party, and with a B-side written by Paul Anka, young Paul Anka called Danny. And on the way to Carnegie Hall, I saw Phil Spector. And Phil Spector said, I just cut a smash, man, with the crystals. Called It's My Party. I said, what? I had never experienced that kind of competition before.

I went back to the studio with the engineer, and we mastered 100 acetates to send out to the radio. And the rest, you know, I had to go to Japan right after that. And I told Leslie, we've got a great record and everything. All we need to do is fix that name, because I don't think this name is going to work with a pop record or so.

I went back to the studio with the engineer, and we mastered 100 acetates to send out to the radio. And the rest, you know, I had to go to Japan right after that. And I told Leslie, we've got a great record and everything. All we need to do is fix that name, because I don't think this name is going to work with a pop record or so.

No, I didn't like it. I won't tell Al Gore about that. And so I went to Japan to do a television show and we did a little acting and scoring it. And so I got a call from Irving Green later, and he said, did anybody call you yet? I said, no. I said, did she get that name together yet? Did she come up with any suggestions? She said, the record's number one. Do you really care? I said, no.

No, I didn't like it. I won't tell Al Gore about that. And so I went to Japan to do a television show and we did a little acting and scoring it. And so I got a call from Irving Green later, and he said, did anybody call you yet? I said, no. I said, did she get that name together yet? Did she come up with any suggestions? She said, the record's number one. Do you really care? I said, no.

It sounds just fine. It's amazing. It's a big lesson.

It sounds just fine. It's amazing. It's a big lesson.

I don't think it came out. I don't think it came out. Leslie's thing had such impact. I don't know. I may be wrong, but I don't think it came out.

I don't think it came out. I don't think it came out. Leslie's thing had such impact. I don't know. I may be wrong, but I don't think it came out.

And a long time ago, too.

And a long time ago, too.

He's an amazing musician.

He's an amazing musician.

Well, you know, that was Chicago during the Depression in the ghetto. Nobody asked any questions. You know, Chicago also was the spawning ground of every... probably the headquarters spotting ground of every gangster in America, black or white. Roger Tooley, Dillinger, Capone, everybody. So the Jones boys were just, they were one of the first black gangsters. They started the policy rackets.

Well, you know, that was Chicago during the Depression in the ghetto. Nobody asked any questions. You know, Chicago also was the spawning ground of every... probably the headquarters spotting ground of every gangster in America, black or white. Roger Tooley, Dillinger, Capone, everybody. So the Jones boys were just, they were one of the first black gangsters. They started the policy rackets.

And they also had a five and dime store chain, the Jones Five and Dime, which they used to call the V's and X's. So I'm going to make a trip over to the V's and X's today.

And they also had a five and dime store chain, the Jones Five and Dime, which they used to call the V's and X's. So I'm going to make a trip over to the V's and X's today.

No, no, no, no, no. They were the gangsters back in the day.

No, no, no, no, no. They were the gangsters back in the day.

I think so, if I can remember. She went to Boston University probably in the 20s, which was very unusual, you know, for African-American females in those days. And she was a very smart lady. She... spoke and wrote like 12 languages, including Hebrew, everything. And she'd type 100 words a minute.

I think so, if I can remember. She went to Boston University probably in the 20s, which was very unusual, you know, for African-American females in those days. And she was a very smart lady. She... spoke and wrote like 12 languages, including Hebrew, everything. And she'd type 100 words a minute.

So she was like kind of the administrator, superintendent of one of the places we lived in, like the Rosenwald, before we got into a house.

So she was like kind of the administrator, superintendent of one of the places we lived in, like the Rosenwald, before we got into a house.

Well, it's dementia praecox, which is schizophrenia. She was obsessed with religion. She would stare out of the window and she would sing spirituals, she'd play spirituals. And it was just erratic at times. And I remember when I was about five years old, my birthday party, she threw my coconut cake off the back porch. And it was really a big deal to me.

Well, it's dementia praecox, which is schizophrenia. She was obsessed with religion. She would stare out of the window and she would sing spirituals, she'd play spirituals. And it was just erratic at times. And I remember when I was about five years old, my birthday party, she threw my coconut cake off the back porch. And it was really a big deal to me.

I don't know why I remember that so much, but it was really... something I couldn't understand, because the cake was supposed to be like the symbol or the metaphor for the joy of the birthday party. And she threw it out, and it just really shocked me. And it was a very traumatic moment, and I know it sounds like it's nothing.

I don't know why I remember that so much, but it was really... something I couldn't understand, because the cake was supposed to be like the symbol or the metaphor for the joy of the birthday party. And she threw it out, and it just really shocked me. And it was a very traumatic moment, and I know it sounds like it's nothing.

At five years old, it freaked me out. And I realized, my brother and I both realized something was wrong. I mean, every day we realized something was wrong, because it just wasn't like other people's parents. Even the bad parents, it wasn't the same as that. It was because she was very smart. And so...

At five years old, it freaked me out. And I realized, my brother and I both realized something was wrong. I mean, every day we realized something was wrong, because it just wasn't like other people's parents. Even the bad parents, it wasn't the same as that. It was because she was very smart. And so...

Finally, she was committed, and I didn't know or kind of blanked out what the process was until I went back there 50 years later when I did Listen Up. All of it came back, and I guess that's the part of the book that was cathartic. There were missing pieces in my memory, and it got clarified.

Finally, she was committed, and I didn't know or kind of blanked out what the process was until I went back there 50 years later when I did Listen Up. All of it came back, and I guess that's the part of the book that was cathartic. There were missing pieces in my memory, and it got clarified.

Oh, absolutely. Well, we had a very hard time communicating. We couldn't have a conversation without it turning into a big argument. And I didn't know—I guess Lloyd and I both were so hungry for— Lloyd's your brother. Lloyd's my brother. He's my younger brother. We were so hungry for the mother stuff and just to be patted on the back of a head or something that we—

Oh, absolutely. Well, we had a very hard time communicating. We couldn't have a conversation without it turning into a big argument. And I didn't know—I guess Lloyd and I both were so hungry for— Lloyd's your brother. Lloyd's my brother. He's my younger brother. We were so hungry for the mother stuff and just to be patted on the back of a head or something that we—

we just never could communicate. We didn't know how to connect. At that time, I guess you need validation and guidance and love and nurturing and those words that weren't around in the ghetto during the Depression. Nurturing never came up very often. It was like cholesterol. Please, cholesterol sounds like something to drink. Well,

we just never could communicate. We didn't know how to connect. At that time, I guess you need validation and guidance and love and nurturing and those words that weren't around in the ghetto during the Depression. Nurturing never came up very often. It was like cholesterol. Please, cholesterol sounds like something to drink. Well,

Oh, my God. I couldn't believe it. That was the first time I ever played Birdland with my own band. I was really proud because I'd seen all my idols there, Charlie Parker, Dizzy, Duke, Basie, everybody. And lo and behold, here come, I see her at the, you know, it's a huge entrance there that comes downstairs. And the regular host there was named Pee Wee Marquette, who was really a character.

Oh, my God. I couldn't believe it. That was the first time I ever played Birdland with my own band. I was really proud because I'd seen all my idols there, Charlie Parker, Dizzy, Duke, Basie, everybody. And lo and behold, here come, I see her at the, you know, it's a huge entrance there that comes downstairs. And the regular host there was named Pee Wee Marquette, who was really a character.

He had four watches on and about three coats of powder on his face. a couple of jackets on and a vest and everything else. A real character with a lot of attitude. And you'd see, like, parting of the crowd, you know, as he's walking through, because he was so short. And he'd walk through. And she said, no, come on, lady, you know, you can't come in. And she said, shut up, you know.

He had four watches on and about three coats of powder on his face. a couple of jackets on and a vest and everything else. A real character with a lot of attitude. And you'd see, like, parting of the crowd, you know, as he's walking through, because he was so short. And he'd walk through. And she said, no, come on, lady, you know, you can't come in. And she said, shut up, you know.

If you didn't drink so much, you wouldn't be so short. And she had a tongue like a laser beam. She turned the place out for about an hour. You knew she was down there. And she took nothing from anybody.

If you didn't drink so much, you wouldn't be so short. And she had a tongue like a laser beam. She turned the place out for about an hour. You knew she was down there. And she took nothing from anybody.

Yes, she did.

Yes, she did.

Absolutely. And I said to her, I said, this is, I'm very touched, you know, but, you know, you can buy this for like $3 or $4 or something like that. And she, you know, but she meant it as something that she was really trying to give. And more and more, Lloyd started to realize, you know, that the things that she did, she couldn't help it.

Absolutely. And I said to her, I said, this is, I'm very touched, you know, but, you know, you can buy this for like $3 or $4 or something like that. And she, you know, but she meant it as something that she was really trying to give. And more and more, Lloyd started to realize, you know, that the things that she did, she couldn't help it.

And in the final analysis, she probably went through more hell than anybody, all of us combined, because it Having kids, I know how that must have felt, regardless of how difficult she made it for herself and for us. We didn't know how to be children. She didn't know how to be a mother. And it was very painful.

And in the final analysis, she probably went through more hell than anybody, all of us combined, because it Having kids, I know how that must have felt, regardless of how difficult she made it for herself and for us. We didn't know how to be children. She didn't know how to be a mother. And it was very painful.

Well, it starts before that. It starts during the movie, you know, of when we first met. After, initially at 12 years old, he was about 19, about 77 or so. And he came over to the house, and that's the first time we really met on a professional basis. He was growing up then.

Well, it starts before that. It starts during the movie, you know, of when we first met. After, initially at 12 years old, he was about 19, about 77 or so. And he came over to the house, and that's the first time we really met on a professional basis. He was growing up then.

And he said, pleased to meet you, et cetera, and was very sweet, and said, I'm doing a, we have a new contract with Epic Records and the Jackson 5, I'm still working with them, but I'm going to do a solo album, and I was wondering if you could help me find a producer. I said, great, Michael, but right now we've got a mammoth,

And he said, pleased to meet you, et cetera, and was very sweet, and said, I'm doing a, we have a new contract with Epic Records and the Jackson 5, I'm still working with them, but I'm going to do a solo album, and I was wondering if you could help me find a producer. I said, great, Michael, but right now we've got a mammoth,

job here to pre-record all the songs with you and Nipsey Russell, Richard Pryor, Lena Horne, Diana Ross, and everybody else to pre-record the songs before you make a film. That's just the nature of what films are about.

job here to pre-record all the songs with you and Nipsey Russell, Richard Pryor, Lena Horne, Diana Ross, and everybody else to pre-record the songs before you make a film. That's just the nature of what films are about.

You pre-record the voice, everything, and you have to really guess right about the dramatic context of how a song starts and stops, how long it is, because it's all going to be film, and that's what the film's going to be. It's a slave to that track, so you really have to concentrate. And so I said, if you'll be patient and just wait until we get through this, maybe we can talk about the producer.

You pre-record the voice, everything, and you have to really guess right about the dramatic context of how a song starts and stops, how long it is, because it's all going to be film, and that's what the film's going to be. It's a slave to that track, so you really have to concentrate. And so I said, if you'll be patient and just wait until we get through this, maybe we can talk about the producer.

So we finished the pre-records. We start getting ready, preparing for the film. Sidney Lumet is at the St. George Hotel in Brooklyn one day, and he's blocking out a scene with the four principals. And Michael's the scarecrow, and he had... pulled out of his straw chest, he'd pull out little quotes from Confucius, Aristotle, Socrates. And he kept saying Socrates.

So we finished the pre-records. We start getting ready, preparing for the film. Sidney Lumet is at the St. George Hotel in Brooklyn one day, and he's blocking out a scene with the four principals. And Michael's the scarecrow, and he had... pulled out of his straw chest, he'd pull out little quotes from Confucius, Aristotle, Socrates. And he kept saying Socrates.

About the third day, I just took him aside and said, Michael, the word is Socrates. And he said, really? And he was really surprised, you know, because he's been a star since he was five, you know, so he's been on the road since then. So he's like an old man in one sense, like a baby in another sense.

About the third day, I just took him aside and said, Michael, the word is Socrates. And he said, really? And he was really surprised, you know, because he's been a star since he was five, you know, so he's been on the road since then. So he's like an old man in one sense, like a baby in another sense.

And there was something about the look in his eye, and I'd been watching him, the discipline he had. He'd get up at 5 in the morning for his makeup test and everything. He was a very, very conscientious and disciplined young person. I mean, one of the most I'd ever seen. He knew everybody's lines, everybody's songs, everybody's lyrics, everybody's dance steps, everybody's movement, everything.

And there was something about the look in his eye, and I'd been watching him, the discipline he had. He'd get up at 5 in the morning for his makeup test and everything. He was a very, very conscientious and disciplined young person. I mean, one of the most I'd ever seen. He knew everybody's lines, everybody's songs, everybody's lyrics, everybody's dance steps, everybody's movement, everything.

And the most amazing, absorbing, and involved person I'd ever, artist I'd ever seen before. And I love the records they made on Motown, you know, the bubblegum things, you know, dance machine and those things. After seeing this other side of him, I felt that there was much more inside of Michael that hadn't been touched.

And the most amazing, absorbing, and involved person I'd ever, artist I'd ever seen before. And I love the records they made on Motown, you know, the bubblegum things, you know, dance machine and those things. After seeing this other side of him, I felt that there was much more inside of Michael that hadn't been touched.

Because you look at Michael at first, you say there's nothing else to do with him. He's done everything. And he did it at nine. You know, he's singing love song to a rat, you know, Ben. And everything. And he was fearless and sincere about it. He had a very strong sense of maturity.

Because you look at Michael at first, you say there's nothing else to do with him. He's done everything. And he did it at nine. You know, he's singing love song to a rat, you know, Ben. And everything. And he was fearless and sincere about it. He had a very strong sense of maturity.

A Thriller was a combination of all my experience as an orchestrator and picking the songs, and Michael's, all the talents he has as a dancer, as a singer, as an amazing entertainer. It was like a Thriller in everything, we accumulated experience putting it all together.

A Thriller was a combination of all my experience as an orchestrator and picking the songs, and Michael's, all the talents he has as a dancer, as a singer, as an amazing entertainer. It was like a Thriller in everything, we accumulated experience putting it all together.

It's a pleasure, Terri.

It's a pleasure, Terri.

I think it was at the Elks Club, Terry, where we used to, after we played two jobs, we'd work from 7 to 10 in the white tennis clubs where we'd play cup music of the popular music of the day, To Each His Own and Room Full of Roses. And then at 10 o'clock, we'd go play the black clubs, the Black and Tan, the Rock and Chair, and the Washington Educational and Social Club.

I think it was at the Elks Club, Terry, where we used to, after we played two jobs, we'd work from 7 to 10 in the white tennis clubs where we'd play cup music of the popular music of the day, To Each His Own and Room Full of Roses. And then at 10 o'clock, we'd go play the black clubs, the Black and Tan, the Rock and Chair, and the Washington Educational and Social Club.

And we played for strippers. We sang. Oh, really? We had choreography. We had everything. As kids, we were pretty cocky because we had a great band. We could read music very well. And we did everything. It was a show band, too. So we got most of the jobs that came around. It was nice. We played with Billie Holiday when we were in 48, behind her.

And we played for strippers. We sang. Oh, really? We had choreography. We had everything. As kids, we were pretty cocky because we had a great band. We could read music very well. And we did everything. It was a show band, too. So we got most of the jobs that came around. It was nice. We played with Billie Holiday when we were in 48, behind her.

And in 49, we played with Billy Eckstein and Cab Calloway and all the bands that came through. So we were pretty confident in those days. And the band just kept getting tighter because we rehearsed a lot.

And in 49, we played with Billy Eckstein and Cab Calloway and all the bands that came through. So we were pretty confident in those days. And the band just kept getting tighter because we rehearsed a lot.

Yes, he did. He had his own apartment, too, and two suits. It was amazing. But I guess what impressed me the most with Ray is that he was so independent and his sightlessness did not hinder him at all. It's one of the treasured, cherished friendships that I really have because as kids we used to talk about everything.

Yes, he did. He had his own apartment, too, and two suits. It was amazing. But I guess what impressed me the most with Ray is that he was so independent and his sightlessness did not hinder him at all. It's one of the treasured, cherished friendships that I really have because as kids we used to talk about everything.

He'd show me how to write music in Braille, Dizzy Gillespie songs like Eminem and Bebop, etc., And we used to dream about the future. Like, wouldn't it be great to work with a symphony orchestra? One day we're going to do that. One day we're going to have three girlfriends each, you know. One day we're going to do movies together. We're going to do all of that stuff. And we did it.

He'd show me how to write music in Braille, Dizzy Gillespie songs like Eminem and Bebop, etc., And we used to dream about the future. Like, wouldn't it be great to work with a symphony orchestra? One day we're going to do that. One day we're going to have three girlfriends each, you know. One day we're going to do movies together. We're going to do all of that stuff. And we did it.

That's what's amazing. We did, you know, In the Heat of the Night together. And we did... With the world, all of those things. Everything. The girls. So it's amazing to dream and have your dreams executed like that.

That's what's amazing. We did, you know, In the Heat of the Night together. And we did... With the world, all of those things. Everything. The girls. So it's amazing to dream and have your dreams executed like that.

I would just like to add that we had half of Count Basie's band on that session and half of Duke Ellington's band on that session. And in those days, that's when I first started to work with Phil Ramone, the engineer, who's now a producer. And Ahmet Ertegun, Neshuwe Ertegun, and Jerry Wexler came by because in those days, what you heard was what you got. It wasn't about fixing in the mix.

I would just like to add that we had half of Count Basie's band on that session and half of Duke Ellington's band on that session. And in those days, that's when I first started to work with Phil Ramone, the engineer, who's now a producer. And Ahmet Ertegun, Neshuwe Ertegun, and Jerry Wexler came by because in those days, what you heard was what you got. It wasn't about fixing in the mix.

There was nothing to mix.

There was nothing to mix.

I had written a suite that I'd been working on for a long time called From the Four Winds. And it was almost a descriptive piece. And I didn't understand theory too well then. But I just went straight. It didn't stop me from writing. I didn't understand key signatures or anything. And I would say silly things on the top of a trumpet part like...

I had written a suite that I'd been working on for a long time called From the Four Winds. And it was almost a descriptive piece. And I didn't understand theory too well then. But I just went straight. It didn't stop me from writing. I didn't understand key signatures or anything. And I would say silly things on the top of a trumpet part like...

A note, when you play B naturals, make the B naturals a half step lower because they sound funny if they're B naturals. And some guy said, idiot, just put a flat on the third line and it's a key signature. Because it didn't bother me that I didn't understand it because I knew eventually I'd learn it. And so I gave this arrangement to, submitted this to Lionel Hampton.

A note, when you play B naturals, make the B naturals a half step lower because they sound funny if they're B naturals. And some guy said, idiot, just put a flat on the third line and it's a key signature. Because it didn't bother me that I didn't understand it because I knew eventually I'd learn it. And so I gave this arrangement to, submitted this to Lionel Hampton.

And he said, you wrote this, huh? I said, yeah. He played trumpet too. He said, yeah. Well, he said, how'd you like to join my band, please? I said, are you kidding? And so they had little brown leather bags for your trumpet then. I had that and just very few toilet articles and so forth.

And he said, you wrote this, huh? I said, yeah. He played trumpet too. He said, yeah. Well, he said, how'd you like to join my band, please? I said, are you kidding? And so they had little brown leather bags for your trumpet then. I had that and just very few toilet articles and so forth.

And I went and sat on that bus so nobody would change their mind, and I wouldn't have to ask the people at home whether I could go or not. And sure enough, everybody got on one by one. Hamp said hi, and I felt secure. Then Gladys Hampton got on the bus and said, uh-uh.

And I went and sat on that bus so nobody would change their mind, and I wouldn't have to ask the people at home whether I could go or not. And sure enough, everybody got on one by one. Hamp said hi, and I felt secure. Then Gladys Hampton got on the bus and said, uh-uh.

what is that child doing on this bus and she said no son you get off the bus and so we'll try to talk later but you go to school and uh i was destroyed and so i got a scholarship to boston to the berkeley college of music and uh i got the call a friend named janet thurlow was singing with the band and she reminded them And they called and said, we'd like you to be with the band.

what is that child doing on this bus and she said no son you get off the bus and so we'll try to talk later but you go to school and uh i was destroyed and so i got a scholarship to boston to the berkeley college of music and uh i got the call a friend named janet thurlow was singing with the band and she reminded them And they called and said, we'd like you to be with the band.

I was 18 then, and I was ready. I was told at school I'd be back. I guess down inside, you know when you go with a band like that, you never go back.

I was 18 then, and I was ready. I was told at school I'd be back. I guess down inside, you know when you go with a band like that, you never go back.

Well, that incident happened when we were playing at a place on Broadway called right next door to Birdland. I mean, totally adjacent. And both places were downstairs. And we had to wear Tyrolean hats, purple shawl collared coats, and Bermuda shorts.

Well, that incident happened when we were playing at a place on Broadway called right next door to Birdland. I mean, totally adjacent. And both places were downstairs. And we had to wear Tyrolean hats, purple shawl collared coats, and Bermuda shorts.

Oh, my God. The whole band.

Oh, my God. The whole band.

Oh, I don't know. That's just Hamp's idea. Hamp was like a rock and roll band, and he was the first rock and roll band, because he attacked an audience like a rock and roll band. No prisoners, and he knew how to get them, too.

Oh, I don't know. That's just Hamp's idea. Hamp was like a rock and roll band, and he was the first rock and roll band, because he attacked an audience like a rock and roll band. No prisoners, and he knew how to get them, too.

Yes, and they'd walk in the theaters, they'd walk, they had thin-soled shoes, and walk over the audience's heads with these thin-soled shoes on top of their chairs, you know. It was absolutely incredible.

Yes, and they'd walk in the theaters, they'd walk, they had thin-soled shoes, and walk over the audience's heads with these thin-soled shoes on top of their chairs, you know. It was absolutely incredible.

He had this sense of show business, but he had a lot of music in the band because, you know, they had people like Wes Montgomery and Charlie Mingus and Fats Navarro, Clifford Brown, amazing musicians in the band. And I loved Hamford having that ambidexterity because he liked great music, but he also liked to level his audience and take no prisoners. Until they were wrung out, he was not satisfied.

He had this sense of show business, but he had a lot of music in the band because, you know, they had people like Wes Montgomery and Charlie Mingus and Fats Navarro, Clifford Brown, amazing musicians in the band. And I loved Hamford having that ambidexterity because he liked great music, but he also liked to level his audience and take no prisoners. Until they were wrung out, he was not satisfied.

Well, that particular night, he had this favorite thing he'd like to do. He'd have everybody, he'd get his drumsticks and start a whole line, almost like a conga line. The saxophone section would follow him around the audience. He'd go around and beat the drumsticks on everybody's table. The trumpets and trombones were right behind him playing Flying Home. Then he'd go upstairs.

Well, that particular night, he had this favorite thing he'd like to do. He'd have everybody, he'd get his drumsticks and start a whole line, almost like a conga line. The saxophone section would follow him around the audience. He'd go around and beat the drumsticks on everybody's table. The trumpets and trombones were right behind him playing Flying Home. Then he'd go upstairs.

I said, oh, my God. Clifford Brown and I said, if he goes upstairs, we may run into Charlie Parker and Bud Powell and all these great musicians. And we went upstairs, and he's playing his drumsticks all over the awnings, and the guys are saying, what is going on here?

I said, oh, my God. Clifford Brown and I said, if he goes upstairs, we may run into Charlie Parker and Bud Powell and all these great musicians. And we went upstairs, and he's playing his drumsticks all over the awnings, and the guys are saying, what is going on here?

He'd even go so far as to get in a taxi cab with a saxophone section and go to another club maybe three blocks away and play with the saxophone section, a band back at the, meanwhile, back at the ranch. We're still playing. So it was quite an experience. He had no shame, and he was a great musician. One of the great times of my life.

He'd even go so far as to get in a taxi cab with a saxophone section and go to another club maybe three blocks away and play with the saxophone section, a band back at the, meanwhile, back at the ranch. We're still playing. So it was quite an experience. He had no shame, and he was a great musician. One of the great times of my life.

Oh, yes. But on top of that, Parker would come next door. Bird would come next door. He loved to read music. And he was starring next door with, like, the 52nd Street All-Stars, the Bebop All-Stars. And they were looking for him next door. It was time for him to play a set. And he's sitting over there in our band playing second tenor because he loved to read music.

Oh, yes. But on top of that, Parker would come next door. Bird would come next door. He loved to read music. And he was starring next door with, like, the 52nd Street All-Stars, the Bebop All-Stars. And they were looking for him next door. It was time for him to play a set. And he's sitting over there in our band playing second tenor because he loved to read music.

And he's sitting for an hour while people are next door waiting to hear him play. as this genius of the 20th century. And he's over there playing second tenor parts to practice his reading. Because all the musicians read music back then.

And he's sitting for an hour while people are next door waiting to hear him play. as this genius of the 20th century. And he's over there playing second tenor parts to practice his reading. Because all the musicians read music back then.

No, no, no, no. Because we were weaned and trained in Seattle. That's the way we had to do in Seattle, too. We had to play shottishes. We had to play rhythm and blues. We had to play stripper music. We played comedy. I mean, the trombone player and myself had a comedy team called Dexedrine and Benzedrine, Major Pickford.

No, no, no, no. Because we were weaned and trained in Seattle. That's the way we had to do in Seattle, too. We had to play shottishes. We had to play rhythm and blues. We had to play stripper music. We played comedy. I mean, the trombone player and myself had a comedy team called Dexedrine and Benzedrine, Major Pickford.

We used to steal all of the comedy lines from the older guys and wear hats and wine bottles in our pockets. It was insane. But no, not at all. We were used to that. We were used to that. He'd have gloves for the whole trumpet section. It would shine in the dark. And you'd do kind of hand choreography and so forth.

We used to steal all of the comedy lines from the older guys and wear hats and wine bottles in our pockets. It was insane. But no, not at all. We were used to that. We were used to that. He'd have gloves for the whole trumpet section. It would shine in the dark. And you'd do kind of hand choreography and so forth.

And people could forget, you know, that those bands back there were basically dance bands to just make people want to feel good dancing. And And coincidentally, great innovation crawled through that platform, like Charlie Parker and the Billy Eckstine Band, the people in Miles Davis and so forth, Dizzy Gillespie from Cab Calloway.

And people could forget, you know, that those bands back there were basically dance bands to just make people want to feel good dancing. And And coincidentally, great innovation crawled through that platform, like Charlie Parker and the Billy Eckstine Band, the people in Miles Davis and so forth, Dizzy Gillespie from Cab Calloway.

But these monsters, major, major musicians, happened to be in bands who were basically there for people to have a good time and dance. And it was about entertainment. And it was ironic because the underlying attitude with all of the bebop musicians is that we have heard Stravinsky now, we've done this, and we want to be pure artists. We don't want to entertain anymore. We don't want to sing.

But these monsters, major, major musicians, happened to be in bands who were basically there for people to have a good time and dance. And it was about entertainment. And it was ironic because the underlying attitude with all of the bebop musicians is that we have heard Stravinsky now, we've done this, and we want to be pure artists. We don't want to entertain anymore. We don't want to sing.

We don't want to have to dance and move or entertain an audience.

We don't want to have to dance and move or entertain an audience.

Well, they had up front were the holy rollers, I guess, and then they had the drinkers, and then they had the guys that indulged in sweet wheat and giggle grass. And they had the guys that were the hardcore, you know, like mainliners really.

Well, they had up front were the holy rollers, I guess, and then they had the drinkers, and then they had the guys that indulged in sweet wheat and giggle grass. And they had the guys that were the hardcore, you know, like mainliners really.

The sweet wheat section. We were very young then, and I was 18 when I went with that band. And you'd bounce back between that or trying to figure out how to make that work with Mogan David Wine or Manischewitz. It was ridiculous.

I look at the whole book and the whole life, I guess, as if it's like somebody else. I don't know where I had the spirit or the stick-to-itiveness to write something like that then. Because, you know, number one, I knew that music was my ticket out of this... other life that I had, you know, the Doug life and a dysfunctional family life.

And it was like a wonderland to arrange and the idea of orchestration and arrangements and composition. And that to this day is what my core skill is as an arranger and orchestrator and composer. I was just so happy to have a surrounding and environment where that was spawned, that was encouraged all the time.

Terry, by the way, I think that's the first recorded solo I ever had on record. The first record I was ever involved with, and I think it's one of the only solos I have on record.

I don't know. I was getting more and more pulled into the quicksand of writing. And then about a year or so later, after we begged Hamp to get Gigi Grice and Benny Golson and Clifford Brown in the band, sitting next to Art Farmer and Clifford Brown and Benny Bailey helped me get into writing quickly. Clifford Brown was probably one of the greatest trumpet players that ever lived. Unbelievable.

We had just come back from two State Department tours with Dizzy Gillespie. The first was in the Middle East, a place in Pakistan, right there, you know, Abadan and Iran and Syria, Beirut. And we came back to the White House Correspondents Ball in Washington. They liked what we had done. And so they sent us off to South America after that.

And naturally, a black man's going to play all these kamikaze places. They'd have the Cypriots stoning the embassy in Athens, and they'd rush us over from Ankara, Turkey, get in there quick, you know, almost like ground troops, and send a black man over there. And so the same students that stoned the embassy were all down front in the front row and everything else.

It was pretty scary, really, because we didn't know what their conflict was all about, really. And after the... concert, the same students started crawling over the top of the stage and straight towards the band. I said, this is it now. We're in big trouble here. The same ones who were stoning the embassy. And they grabbed Dizzy. We had no idea what was on their mind.

And they put him on their shoulders, and they were walking around saying, Dizzy, Dizzy, Dizzy. I was so relieved. It was terrifying to watch them come towards the band, especially with the reputation they had in the papers the day before. And so we went down to, getting back to Latin America, we went down to Argentina first, in Buenos Aires.

And after our first concert, we met a beautiful young musician named Lalo Schiffrin. He was a teenager then, too. And he had told me all about... He'd studied with Olivier Messiaen, and that's where I first heard the name Nadia Boulanger, and it just sent electricity through me. He also told... We also recorded down there with Asta Piazzolla, who was like a very experimental...

a composer working on what they call a modern city tango. And then he warned us about the new movement that was coming out of Brazil. And we were very excited about hearing this new music. It was Bossa Nova. And when we got to Brazil, Dizzy played with the rhythm section, Samba rhythm section at the Gloria Hotel one afternoon. And sitting in the front row were three teenagers,

a married couple, Astrid and Joao Gilberto, and Antonio Carlos Jobim, who started a whole Bossa Nova movement. And ironically, the first record that came out in the United States was Desafinado. And the melody on the first, just the opening string was just almost pure Dizzy Gillespie. That's why they referred to it at that time as jazz ensemble. before they even called it Bossa Nova.

And so we came home all excited about this new music. They had moved the clave beat, which is really like the foundation of Latin music, straight up and down Latin America. That's the foundation of the clave beat. It's the guiding force. And I wanted to record some of this stuff.

So I made a thing called Big Band Bossa Nova, and I wrote into about 20 minutes, this is 1962, a tune called Soul Bossa Nova. We had Brazilian rhythm section and everything else, and I guess 38 years passed. Now, Austin Powers is this huge star, and he's stuck with this thing. This is his theme forever. Da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da.

And it's amazing, because they did two movies with the theme, and he opened it with a marching band playing it the first time. Now, he wants me to be in the next film.

Well, it was camp. But, you know, it doesn't matter, though, because, you know, a tune like that was kind of a campy tune anyway. So I loved it, you know. I was very happy that he found a whole new... a home for this, you know, in this generation.

Well, it was sort of a challenge, really, because I had come back from Europe, and I had lost a lot of money, and I had to say, Irving Green, the president of Mercury, said, come over here as an A&R man, because you are an artist on Mercury anyway, an artist in repertoire. He hired me, and he promoted me to vice president. And

During that time, I was recording all the divas and, you know, Nina Simone and Sarah Vaughan and Shirley Horne, Donnie Washington. And we were doing things with Robert Farnes, big string, expensive dates and so forth. And they were beautiful musical albums, but...

Irving said to me one time, he says, you know, all the pop guys are saying you and Hal Mooney, who are the arrangers, are budget busters because you do all this big music. But we need some more help with the bottom line with hit records. And I was a little presumptuous and said, well, I don't think it's such a big deal to make a pop hit.

And he says, well, why don't you start making something then? And we were at a meeting at the Oxford House where we had A&R meetings regularly in Chicago.

and he said here's a tape that joe glazer sent me and his friend the fight manager somebody has a niece that sang something just say you listen to it and we'll send it back you know i grabbed it and uh i thought i said i'd like to try this because she had a great sound as far as a rock singer in those days she could sing really in tune she was 16 years old and uh we went back to new york and talked to joe glazer he said make her a star and you know all of that hollywood stuff and uh

We went in on a Saturday and we recorded two songs, It's My Party, and with a B-side written by Paul Anka, young Paul Anka called Danny. And on the way to Carnegie Hall, I saw Phil Spector. And Phil Spector said, I just cut a smash, man, with the crystals. Called It's My Party. I said, what? I had never experienced that kind of competition before.

I went back to the studio with the engineer, and we mastered 100 acetates to send out to the radio. And the rest, you know, I had to go to Japan right after that. And I told Leslie, we've got a great record and everything. All we need to do is fix that name, because I don't think this name is going to work with a pop record or so.

No, I didn't like it. I won't tell Al Gore about that. And so I went to Japan to do a television show and we did a little acting and scoring it. And so I got a call from Irving Green later, and he said, did anybody call you yet? I said, no. I said, did she get that name together yet? Did she come up with any suggestions? She said, the record's number one. Do you really care? I said, no.

It sounds just fine. It's amazing. It's a big lesson.

I don't think it came out. I don't think it came out. Leslie's thing had such impact. I don't know. I may be wrong, but I don't think it came out.

And a long time ago, too.

He's an amazing musician.

Well, you know, that was Chicago during the Depression in the ghetto. Nobody asked any questions. You know, Chicago also was the spawning ground of every... probably the headquarters spotting ground of every gangster in America, black or white. Roger Tooley, Dillinger, Capone, everybody. So the Jones boys were just, they were one of the first black gangsters. They started the policy rackets.

And they also had a five and dime store chain, the Jones Five and Dime, which they used to call the V's and X's. So I'm going to make a trip over to the V's and X's today.

No, no, no, no, no. They were the gangsters back in the day.

I think so, if I can remember. She went to Boston University probably in the 20s, which was very unusual, you know, for African-American females in those days. And she was a very smart lady. She... spoke and wrote like 12 languages, including Hebrew, everything. And she'd type 100 words a minute.

So she was like kind of the administrator, superintendent of one of the places we lived in, like the Rosenwald, before we got into a house.

Well, it's dementia praecox, which is schizophrenia. She was obsessed with religion. She would stare out of the window and she would sing spirituals, she'd play spirituals. And it was just erratic at times. And I remember when I was about five years old, my birthday party, she threw my coconut cake off the back porch. And it was really a big deal to me.

I don't know why I remember that so much, but it was really... something I couldn't understand, because the cake was supposed to be like the symbol or the metaphor for the joy of the birthday party. And she threw it out, and it just really shocked me. And it was a very traumatic moment, and I know it sounds like it's nothing.

At five years old, it freaked me out. And I realized, my brother and I both realized something was wrong. I mean, every day we realized something was wrong, because it just wasn't like other people's parents. Even the bad parents, it wasn't the same as that. It was because she was very smart. And so...

Finally, she was committed, and I didn't know or kind of blanked out what the process was until I went back there 50 years later when I did Listen Up. All of it came back, and I guess that's the part of the book that was cathartic. There were missing pieces in my memory, and it got clarified.

Oh, absolutely. Well, we had a very hard time communicating. We couldn't have a conversation without it turning into a big argument. And I didn't know—I guess Lloyd and I both were so hungry for— Lloyd's your brother. Lloyd's my brother. He's my younger brother. We were so hungry for the mother stuff and just to be patted on the back of a head or something that we—

we just never could communicate. We didn't know how to connect. At that time, I guess you need validation and guidance and love and nurturing and those words that weren't around in the ghetto during the Depression. Nurturing never came up very often. It was like cholesterol. Please, cholesterol sounds like something to drink. Well,

Oh, my God. I couldn't believe it. That was the first time I ever played Birdland with my own band. I was really proud because I'd seen all my idols there, Charlie Parker, Dizzy, Duke, Basie, everybody. And lo and behold, here come, I see her at the, you know, it's a huge entrance there that comes downstairs. And the regular host there was named Pee Wee Marquette, who was really a character.

He had four watches on and about three coats of powder on his face. a couple of jackets on and a vest and everything else. A real character with a lot of attitude. And you'd see, like, parting of the crowd, you know, as he's walking through, because he was so short. And he'd walk through. And she said, no, come on, lady, you know, you can't come in. And she said, shut up, you know.

If you didn't drink so much, you wouldn't be so short. And she had a tongue like a laser beam. She turned the place out for about an hour. You knew she was down there. And she took nothing from anybody.

Yes, she did.

Absolutely. And I said to her, I said, this is, I'm very touched, you know, but, you know, you can buy this for like $3 or $4 or something like that. And she, you know, but she meant it as something that she was really trying to give. And more and more, Lloyd started to realize, you know, that the things that she did, she couldn't help it.

And in the final analysis, she probably went through more hell than anybody, all of us combined, because it Having kids, I know how that must have felt, regardless of how difficult she made it for herself and for us. We didn't know how to be children. She didn't know how to be a mother. And it was very painful.

Well, it starts before that. It starts during the movie, you know, of when we first met. After, initially at 12 years old, he was about 19, about 77 or so. And he came over to the house, and that's the first time we really met on a professional basis. He was growing up then.

And he said, pleased to meet you, et cetera, and was very sweet, and said, I'm doing a, we have a new contract with Epic Records and the Jackson 5, I'm still working with them, but I'm going to do a solo album, and I was wondering if you could help me find a producer. I said, great, Michael, but right now we've got a mammoth,

job here to pre-record all the songs with you and Nipsey Russell, Richard Pryor, Lena Horne, Diana Ross, and everybody else to pre-record the songs before you make a film. That's just the nature of what films are about.

You pre-record the voice, everything, and you have to really guess right about the dramatic context of how a song starts and stops, how long it is, because it's all going to be film, and that's what the film's going to be. It's a slave to that track, so you really have to concentrate. And so I said, if you'll be patient and just wait until we get through this, maybe we can talk about the producer.

So we finished the pre-records. We start getting ready, preparing for the film. Sidney Lumet is at the St. George Hotel in Brooklyn one day, and he's blocking out a scene with the four principals. And Michael's the scarecrow, and he had... pulled out of his straw chest, he'd pull out little quotes from Confucius, Aristotle, Socrates. And he kept saying Socrates.

About the third day, I just took him aside and said, Michael, the word is Socrates. And he said, really? And he was really surprised, you know, because he's been a star since he was five, you know, so he's been on the road since then. So he's like an old man in one sense, like a baby in another sense.

And there was something about the look in his eye, and I'd been watching him, the discipline he had. He'd get up at 5 in the morning for his makeup test and everything. He was a very, very conscientious and disciplined young person. I mean, one of the most I'd ever seen. He knew everybody's lines, everybody's songs, everybody's lyrics, everybody's dance steps, everybody's movement, everything.

And the most amazing, absorbing, and involved person I'd ever, artist I'd ever seen before. And I love the records they made on Motown, you know, the bubblegum things, you know, dance machine and those things. After seeing this other side of him, I felt that there was much more inside of Michael that hadn't been touched.

Because you look at Michael at first, you say there's nothing else to do with him. He's done everything. And he did it at nine. You know, he's singing love song to a rat, you know, Ben. And everything. And he was fearless and sincere about it. He had a very strong sense of maturity.

A Thriller was a combination of all my experience as an orchestrator and picking the songs, and Michael's, all the talents he has as a dancer, as a singer, as an amazing entertainer. It was like a Thriller in everything, we accumulated experience putting it all together.

It's a pleasure, Terri.

I think it was at the Elks Club, Terry, where we used to, after we played two jobs, we'd work from 7 to 10 in the white tennis clubs where we'd play cup music of the popular music of the day, To Each His Own and Room Full of Roses. And then at 10 o'clock, we'd go play the black clubs, the Black and Tan, the Rock and Chair, and the Washington Educational and Social Club.

And we played for strippers. We sang. Oh, really? We had choreography. We had everything. As kids, we were pretty cocky because we had a great band. We could read music very well. And we did everything. It was a show band, too. So we got most of the jobs that came around. It was nice. We played with Billie Holiday when we were in 48, behind her.

And in 49, we played with Billy Eckstein and Cab Calloway and all the bands that came through. So we were pretty confident in those days. And the band just kept getting tighter because we rehearsed a lot.

Yes, he did. He had his own apartment, too, and two suits. It was amazing. But I guess what impressed me the most with Ray is that he was so independent and his sightlessness did not hinder him at all. It's one of the treasured, cherished friendships that I really have because as kids we used to talk about everything.

He'd show me how to write music in Braille, Dizzy Gillespie songs like Eminem and Bebop, etc., And we used to dream about the future. Like, wouldn't it be great to work with a symphony orchestra? One day we're going to do that. One day we're going to have three girlfriends each, you know. One day we're going to do movies together. We're going to do all of that stuff. And we did it.

That's what's amazing. We did, you know, In the Heat of the Night together. And we did... With the world, all of those things. Everything. The girls. So it's amazing to dream and have your dreams executed like that.

I would just like to add that we had half of Count Basie's band on that session and half of Duke Ellington's band on that session. And in those days, that's when I first started to work with Phil Ramone, the engineer, who's now a producer. And Ahmet Ertegun, Neshuwe Ertegun, and Jerry Wexler came by because in those days, what you heard was what you got. It wasn't about fixing in the mix.

There was nothing to mix.

I had written a suite that I'd been working on for a long time called From the Four Winds. And it was almost a descriptive piece. And I didn't understand theory too well then. But I just went straight. It didn't stop me from writing. I didn't understand key signatures or anything. And I would say silly things on the top of a trumpet part like...

A note, when you play B naturals, make the B naturals a half step lower because they sound funny if they're B naturals. And some guy said, idiot, just put a flat on the third line and it's a key signature. Because it didn't bother me that I didn't understand it because I knew eventually I'd learn it. And so I gave this arrangement to, submitted this to Lionel Hampton.

And he said, you wrote this, huh? I said, yeah. He played trumpet too. He said, yeah. Well, he said, how'd you like to join my band, please? I said, are you kidding? And so they had little brown leather bags for your trumpet then. I had that and just very few toilet articles and so forth.

And I went and sat on that bus so nobody would change their mind, and I wouldn't have to ask the people at home whether I could go or not. And sure enough, everybody got on one by one. Hamp said hi, and I felt secure. Then Gladys Hampton got on the bus and said, uh-uh.

what is that child doing on this bus and she said no son you get off the bus and so we'll try to talk later but you go to school and uh i was destroyed and so i got a scholarship to boston to the berkeley college of music and uh i got the call a friend named janet thurlow was singing with the band and she reminded them And they called and said, we'd like you to be with the band.

I was 18 then, and I was ready. I was told at school I'd be back. I guess down inside, you know when you go with a band like that, you never go back.

Well, that incident happened when we were playing at a place on Broadway called right next door to Birdland. I mean, totally adjacent. And both places were downstairs. And we had to wear Tyrolean hats, purple shawl collared coats, and Bermuda shorts.

Oh, my God. The whole band.

Oh, I don't know. That's just Hamp's idea. Hamp was like a rock and roll band, and he was the first rock and roll band, because he attacked an audience like a rock and roll band. No prisoners, and he knew how to get them, too.

Yes, and they'd walk in the theaters, they'd walk, they had thin-soled shoes, and walk over the audience's heads with these thin-soled shoes on top of their chairs, you know. It was absolutely incredible.

He had this sense of show business, but he had a lot of music in the band because, you know, they had people like Wes Montgomery and Charlie Mingus and Fats Navarro, Clifford Brown, amazing musicians in the band. And I loved Hamford having that ambidexterity because he liked great music, but he also liked to level his audience and take no prisoners. Until they were wrung out, he was not satisfied.

Well, that particular night, he had this favorite thing he'd like to do. He'd have everybody, he'd get his drumsticks and start a whole line, almost like a conga line. The saxophone section would follow him around the audience. He'd go around and beat the drumsticks on everybody's table. The trumpets and trombones were right behind him playing Flying Home. Then he'd go upstairs.

I said, oh, my God. Clifford Brown and I said, if he goes upstairs, we may run into Charlie Parker and Bud Powell and all these great musicians. And we went upstairs, and he's playing his drumsticks all over the awnings, and the guys are saying, what is going on here?

He'd even go so far as to get in a taxi cab with a saxophone section and go to another club maybe three blocks away and play with the saxophone section, a band back at the, meanwhile, back at the ranch. We're still playing. So it was quite an experience. He had no shame, and he was a great musician. One of the great times of my life.

Oh, yes. But on top of that, Parker would come next door. Bird would come next door. He loved to read music. And he was starring next door with, like, the 52nd Street All-Stars, the Bebop All-Stars. And they were looking for him next door. It was time for him to play a set. And he's sitting over there in our band playing second tenor because he loved to read music.

And he's sitting for an hour while people are next door waiting to hear him play. as this genius of the 20th century. And he's over there playing second tenor parts to practice his reading. Because all the musicians read music back then.

No, no, no, no. Because we were weaned and trained in Seattle. That's the way we had to do in Seattle, too. We had to play shottishes. We had to play rhythm and blues. We had to play stripper music. We played comedy. I mean, the trombone player and myself had a comedy team called Dexedrine and Benzedrine, Major Pickford.

We used to steal all of the comedy lines from the older guys and wear hats and wine bottles in our pockets. It was insane. But no, not at all. We were used to that. We were used to that. He'd have gloves for the whole trumpet section. It would shine in the dark. And you'd do kind of hand choreography and so forth.

And people could forget, you know, that those bands back there were basically dance bands to just make people want to feel good dancing. And And coincidentally, great innovation crawled through that platform, like Charlie Parker and the Billy Eckstine Band, the people in Miles Davis and so forth, Dizzy Gillespie from Cab Calloway.

But these monsters, major, major musicians, happened to be in bands who were basically there for people to have a good time and dance. And it was about entertainment. And it was ironic because the underlying attitude with all of the bebop musicians is that we have heard Stravinsky now, we've done this, and we want to be pure artists. We don't want to entertain anymore. We don't want to sing.

We don't want to have to dance and move or entertain an audience.

Well, they had up front were the holy rollers, I guess, and then they had the drinkers, and then they had the guys that indulged in sweet wheat and giggle grass. And they had the guys that were the hardcore, you know, like mainliners really.