Rachel Abrams

So it sounds like these places are operating with very little regulation.

How did you end up tracing what happens to the lead that they produce?

So how did you do that?

And to be clear, Trafigura is basically a middleman here.

You can't report it yet.

I can't report it.

You have good reporting, but it's not reportable yet.

Peter, I spent many years as a reporter, so I can absolutely relate to this idea that you have questions, you have to get in front of the people you're writing about, give them an opportunity to respond.

And you are getting nowhere trying to go in through the front door, which is what sounds like it was happening to you at East Penn.

So I imagine you had to get creative about how to actually give them an opportunity to comment?

Excellent.

You won't ambush him.

And what did he actually say to you?

Well, to that point, though, this is East Penn acknowledging that what's happening on the ground is not OK, right?

Like, it's not up to their standards as an American company.

Right.

But what about Trafigura?

Like, have they made any kind of pledge to change or modify their behavior?

So at this point, it sounds like you know the answer to the part of the investigation that you were responsible for from that initial phone call you got about this partnership.

Right.