Rachel Aviv

And then there was a letter that he wrote to his lawyer basically saying the trial strategy is to exclude the press. And at the time of the court case, Alice had planned to leave him and to move in with her friend who had an empty house for her. And then abruptly she canceled the plan.

And then there was a letter that he wrote to his lawyer basically saying the trial strategy is to exclude the press. And at the time of the court case, Alice had planned to leave him and to move in with her friend who had an empty house for her. And then abruptly she canceled the plan.

Yeah, I was surprised talking to the Toronto Star reporter who ultimately broke the story. But she said when she was first proposed the story after Andrea had sent an email, she said no. She didn't want to do it. She didn't want to take down an idol. She didn't want to jeopardize her relationships and publishing. She'd seen Alice Munro as this emblem of feminism and

Yeah, I was surprised talking to the Toronto Star reporter who ultimately broke the story. But she said when she was first proposed the story after Andrea had sent an email, she said no. She didn't want to do it. She didn't want to take down an idol. She didn't want to jeopardize her relationships and publishing. She'd seen Alice Munro as this emblem of feminism and

And she'd sort of been inspired by the idea, like, you could tell your own story and take control over your own story. And ultimately, she did change her mind. But even that thought that in 2024, there was like a day-long pause before she was ready to do it. And even before then, Andrea had reached out to a number of journalists, and she got no response.

And she'd sort of been inspired by the idea, like, you could tell your own story and take control over your own story. And ultimately, she did change her mind. But even that thought that in 2024, there was like a day-long pause before she was ready to do it. And even before then, Andrea had reached out to a number of journalists, and she got no response.

There was this sense of, like, we all need to protect our mother. And this feeling that she was very horribly fragile and that, like, this refrain in the family, like, she'll die if she knows.

There was this sense of, like, we all need to protect our mother. And this feeling that she was very horribly fragile and that, like, this refrain in the family, like, she'll die if she knows.

And the sisters kind of took their cue from the parents. Jenny tried to tell her mother, and actually Sheila almost told her mother. But they both, there was this kind of mythology of, like, we must not impinge on this great, great career and on this fragile woman.

And the sisters kind of took their cue from the parents. Jenny tried to tell her mother, and actually Sheila almost told her mother. But they both, there was this kind of mythology of, like, we must not impinge on this great, great career and on this fragile woman.

I mean, he just basically said, it's not the book I'm writing. I think what he said to me at one point was, every family has a thing like this.

I mean, he just basically said, it's not the book I'm writing. I think what he said to me at one point was, every family has a thing like this.

I try not to respond with judgment. I think I just listened. But we're sitting here. It's just us two. I mean, why write a biography if you're not going to sort of. Yeah, I think, you know, Andrea said in a letter to him, like, he had responded, you know, I'll make sure I didn't, like, say anything too flattering, essentially, about Jerry.

I try not to respond with judgment. I think I just listened. But we're sitting here. It's just us two. I mean, why write a biography if you're not going to sort of. Yeah, I think, you know, Andrea said in a letter to him, like, he had responded, you know, I'll make sure I didn't, like, say anything too flattering, essentially, about Jerry.

And she said, I didn't mean cross out flattering adjectives. I meant, you know, scrap the whole book.

And she said, I didn't mean cross out flattering adjectives. I meant, you know, scrap the whole book.

Right. And she said, you know, to ignore this is to ignore sort of the context in which these stories are written. I think there was this—he was trying to hold onto this idea, and the family members were too, that something—that this was between Jerry and Andrea, like this sort of delusional idea that it was a two-person interaction.

Right. And she said, you know, to ignore this is to ignore sort of the context in which these stories are written. I think there was this—he was trying to hold onto this idea, and the family members were too, that something—that this was between Jerry and Andrea, like this sort of delusional idea that it was a two-person interaction.

I think it's Vandals from 1993. Talk about that story. I read the letters that Alice wrote to her agent and she said, first she wrote that she had started a story and she called it about, it was about the subject. And she said she approached it from different angles and then she felt like she was going to throw up and she burned it. And then two months later, she had written a draft of Vandals.

I think it's Vandals from 1993. Talk about that story. I read the letters that Alice wrote to her agent and she said, first she wrote that she had started a story and she called it about, it was about the subject. And she said she approached it from different angles and then she felt like she was going to throw up and she burned it. And then two months later, she had written a draft of Vandals.

It's about a young girl named Liza and her younger brother. And in the summers, they go every day to play with this man and his wife, who has sort of become a mother figure. And the man is sexually abusing the children. It sort of emerges. The story is sort of structured as an investigation into whether the mother knows and chooses to look away, or doesn't know but should know.

It's about a young girl named Liza and her younger brother. And in the summers, they go every day to play with this man and his wife, who has sort of become a mother figure. And the man is sexually abusing the children. It sort of emerges. The story is sort of structured as an investigation into whether the mother knows and chooses to look away, or doesn't know but should know.

And in that story, there are lines Or images that are almost lifted from the letter that Andrea wrote to her mother disclosing her abuse and from a letter that Jerry wrote about their relationship. So it feels, you can sort of see pieces of sort of language, sentences that must have like lit her up in some way or like made her feel like she had to build a story around it.

And in that story, there are lines Or images that are almost lifted from the letter that Andrea wrote to her mother disclosing her abuse and from a letter that Jerry wrote about their relationship. So it feels, you can sort of see pieces of sort of language, sentences that must have like lit her up in some way or like made her feel like she had to build a story around it.

She did for a while. It must have been horrific. You know, she said that for a while she almost tried to convince herself to be hopeful, and she felt like, okay, here she is. She's getting it out. She's working through it. You know, there was one story, Rich as Stink, that has this image of a daughter wearing a wedding dress that burns.

She did for a while. It must have been horrific. You know, she said that for a while she almost tried to convince herself to be hopeful, and she felt like, okay, here she is. She's getting it out. She's working through it. You know, there was one story, Rich as Stink, that has this image of a daughter wearing a wedding dress that burns.

And it's this, like, and Andrea said, you know, here's this image of innocence destroyed. Like, there's this feeling that her mother must understand. And then eventually Andrea realized that, like, the insights were going to her characters and not to her daughters and not to herself.

And it's this, like, and Andrea said, you know, here's this image of innocence destroyed. Like, there's this feeling that her mother must understand. And then eventually Andrea realized that, like, the insights were going to her characters and not to her daughters and not to herself.

And then Andrea felt increasingly enraged by sort of the passivity of the characters, the sense of them sort of existing in this, like, bleak survival mode.

And then Andrea felt increasingly enraged by sort of the passivity of the characters, the sense of them sort of existing in this, like, bleak survival mode.

I'm not sure that there's another writer where you can read the short story so many new times and each time feel like your understanding has shifted. To me, there's something beyond the sort of incredibly astute descriptions of people's inner lives. There's something formally that she's sort of turned the short story into and sort of stretched the limits of it.

I'm not sure that there's another writer where you can read the short story so many new times and each time feel like your understanding has shifted. To me, there's something beyond the sort of incredibly astute descriptions of people's inner lives. There's something formally that she's sort of turned the short story into and sort of stretched the limits of it.

You know, I think this sort of is a defining problem in her life in a way, that she appears to be thriving.

You know, I think this sort of is a defining problem in her life in a way, that she appears to be thriving.

Right. And that, you know, in a way, as a child, it was a coping mechanism. There's a sense that, like, she held the key to either destroying her family or keeping their family together. And so they all felt like she was kind of the star of the family, the one who was the most like her mother. Right.

Right. And that, you know, in a way, as a child, it was a coping mechanism. There's a sense that, like, she held the key to either destroying her family or keeping their family together. And so they all felt like she was kind of the star of the family, the one who was the most like her mother. Right.

She and I had conversations about that where I would say, like, I'm worried I'm slipping into that state that the siblings are in where you seem to be thriving. Your daughter just said you have this incredible joy for life. You do seem to have this incredible joy. I mean, something she said to me that I found really profound was...

She and I had conversations about that where I would say, like, I'm worried I'm slipping into that state that the siblings are in where you seem to be thriving. Your daughter just said you have this incredible joy for life. You do seem to have this incredible joy. I mean, something she said to me that I found really profound was...

One of the letters from the 70s that Alice wrote was about being raped by a colleague. First, she says she was so numb that she just walked aimlessly around the city and missed the class she was supposed to teach that day. And then later on, she says, well, we'll make a good story.

One of the letters from the 70s that Alice wrote was about being raped by a colleague. First, she says she was so numb that she just walked aimlessly around the city and missed the class she was supposed to teach that day. And then later on, she says, well, we'll make a good story.

Yeah. But Andrea said, you know, when I read that letter, at first I kind of felt pain for my mother because I know that feeling of, you know, aimlessly walking around the city. And then she said the next feeling I had was rage that like she did a day of that and sort of moved on to have this incredibly productive life. And I still feel like I'm walking aimlessly around the city. Yeah.

Yeah. But Andrea said, you know, when I read that letter, at first I kind of felt pain for my mother because I know that feeling of, you know, aimlessly walking around the city. And then she said the next feeling I had was rage that like she did a day of that and sort of moved on to have this incredibly productive life. And I still feel like I'm walking aimlessly around the city. Yeah.

I think what was hardest for her was watching Jenny receive the prize from the king of Sweden because Alice was too weak at that point to go to Sweden. And she felt like, oh, you know, the family really is happier that I'm not in it. Now they can live this one reality together.

I think what was hardest for her was watching Jenny receive the prize from the king of Sweden because Alice was too weak at that point to go to Sweden. And she felt like, oh, you know, the family really is happier that I'm not in it. Now they can live this one reality together.

A question that feels almost more alive to me is the way that her writing makes you think about art at what expense. Not to sort of deny that it's art and that it has value as art, but to think about what existed in its wake, sort of who was harmed, what was sacrificed. And that's probably a question that is relevant for many artists, but Alice Munro kind of makes it visible on the page.

A question that feels almost more alive to me is the way that her writing makes you think about art at what expense. Not to sort of deny that it's art and that it has value as art, but to think about what existed in its wake, sort of who was harmed, what was sacrificed. And that's probably a question that is relevant for many artists, but Alice Munro kind of makes it visible on the page.

Like, it felt so literal, like, you know, trading your daughter for art.

Like, it felt so literal, like, you know, trading your daughter for art.

Not as if it were necessarily a conscious decision, but I think Alice did speak with a lot of self-awareness about how she abandoned her mother as she was dying because she felt like she couldn't be the person she wanted to be if she was a good daughter. And that person was a writer.

Not as if it were necessarily a conscious decision, but I think Alice did speak with a lot of self-awareness about how she abandoned her mother as she was dying because she felt like she couldn't be the person she wanted to be if she was a good daughter. And that person was a writer.

Her own mother who was dying, who had Parkinson's.

Her own mother who was dying, who had Parkinson's.

But the repetition, I think that she could speak very honestly and with a lot of self-awareness about how she had to abandon her own mother to become a writer, that I'm sort of feeling that there was a certain awareness probably about how she also abandoned her daughter to be the writer she became.

But the repetition, I think that she could speak very honestly and with a lot of self-awareness about how she had to abandon her own mother to become a writer, that I'm sort of feeling that there was a certain awareness probably about how she also abandoned her daughter to be the writer she became.

I mean, I feel horrified. I feel horrified that it's hard because like, you know, what would she say? Did she think the work is more important? Is that just sort of what the decision she made?

I mean, I feel horrified. I feel horrified that it's hard because like, you know, what would she say? Did she think the work is more important? Is that just sort of what the decision she made?

I mean, it's interesting looking at the Nobel Prize presentation. The secretary is pretty on point. He says she writes about the silent and the silenced, the people who don't make choices, the people who... only understand sort of aspects of their life years later when it's been revealed. Many of her early books are about this kind of

I mean, it's interesting looking at the Nobel Prize presentation. The secretary is pretty on point. He says she writes about the silent and the silenced, the people who don't make choices, the people who... only understand sort of aspects of their life years later when it's been revealed. Many of her early books are about this kind of

I think maybe because in that, you know, one of the most like chilling moments for me was when the biographer, Bob Thacker, when I read the conversation between Alice and him about, she was sort of asking him like, what do my daughters want you to do?

I think maybe because in that, you know, one of the most like chilling moments for me was when the biographer, Bob Thacker, when I read the conversation between Alice and him about, she was sort of asking him like, what do my daughters want you to do?

And he was telling her, and she stated really clearly, you know, my daughters want me to admit that I am with a pedophile, but if I did, it would be the only thing people know about me, and I worked a long time to become who I am. And she sort of, I mean, couldn't be more stark than that.

And he was telling her, and she stated really clearly, you know, my daughters want me to admit that I am with a pedophile, but if I did, it would be the only thing people know about me, and I worked a long time to become who I am. And she sort of, I mean, couldn't be more stark than that.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

poor, rural upbringing where children are pretty cruel to each other and parents are neglectful and there are a lot of horrific sort of freak events that happen quickly. She kind of writes about each phase of her life as she passes through it, not necessarily about herself, but about people going through sort of crises of middle age and then the crises of late age. And I think her stories...

poor, rural upbringing where children are pretty cruel to each other and parents are neglectful and there are a lot of horrific sort of freak events that happen quickly. She kind of writes about each phase of her life as she passes through it, not necessarily about herself, but about people going through sort of crises of middle age and then the crises of late age. And I think her stories...

are unique in the way that they kind of skip forward, like suddenly you're 15 years forward in time, and someone is sort of only grasping what happened in their past belatedly. The thing that feels sort of most present for me in terms of her writing is the sense that, like, she'd be moving through the world and someone would say something and then those words would feel, like, alive to her.

are unique in the way that they kind of skip forward, like suddenly you're 15 years forward in time, and someone is sort of only grasping what happened in their past belatedly. The thing that feels sort of most present for me in terms of her writing is the sense that, like, she'd be moving through the world and someone would say something and then those words would feel, like, alive to her.

And she would sort of write a story around those words and that this constantly happened to her where sort of... It almost felt like she was moving through the world in a different way, like things had a kind of secret intensity that she could pick up on and that she wanted to capture somehow.

And she would sort of write a story around those words and that this constantly happened to her where sort of... It almost felt like she was moving through the world in a different way, like things had a kind of secret intensity that she could pick up on and that she wanted to capture somehow.

Mm-hmm, last spring.

Mm-hmm, last spring.

Yeah, there was a really interesting letter that she wrote to her agent. And she's saying, like, I cannot go on another book tour in order to sort of be a social self. I have to take so many uppers that I can't sleep for 72 hours. And then in order to sleep, I need to take so many downers that I'm sort of endangering my life. And I'm in this sort of dysregulated state. And she was saying...

Yeah, there was a really interesting letter that she wrote to her agent. And she's saying, like, I cannot go on another book tour in order to sort of be a social self. I have to take so many uppers that I can't sleep for 72 hours. And then in order to sleep, I need to take so many downers that I'm sort of endangering my life. And I'm in this sort of dysregulated state. And she was saying...

I don't know if I can publish another book if it requires a book tour because it sort of does damage to myself.

I don't know if I can publish another book if it requires a book tour because it sort of does damage to myself.

Yeah. And she essentially said... My stepfather sexually abused me when I was nine, and my mother protected him for our entire lives.

Yeah. And she essentially said... My stepfather sexually abused me when I was nine, and my mother protected him for our entire lives.

Jerry Fremlin. And then Jenny, who is Andrea's older sister, and Andrew, who was her stepbrother, both wrote essays as well, sort of talking about the way that the silence had shaped their lives and their family's.

Jerry Fremlin. And then Jenny, who is Andrea's older sister, and Andrew, who was her stepbrother, both wrote essays as well, sort of talking about the way that the silence had shaped their lives and their family's.

Well, it's funny because the morning that the Toronto Star article came out, my friend who's from Toronto just emailed it to me and was like, Rachel, you should write about this. And then over the next few days, a few other people, friends were like, you're writing about this, right? What did that tell you?

Well, it's funny because the morning that the Toronto Star article came out, my friend who's from Toronto just emailed it to me and was like, Rachel, you should write about this. And then over the next few days, a few other people, friends were like, you're writing about this, right? What did that tell you?

I think because it's about so many things that I, you know, memory, sort of family, trauma, the sort of generational dynamics of,

I think because it's about so many things that I, you know, memory, sort of family, trauma, the sort of generational dynamics of,

So Alice was away. Her father was dying. And... Andrea asked if she could sleep in the master bedroom, and Jerry Fremlin said, okay, don't tell your mother. And from there, he got into her bed and sexually abused her. She said it didn't even occur to her to tell her mother because she felt so unsafe in that house. And then it continued until she was

So Alice was away. Her father was dying. And... Andrea asked if she could sleep in the master bedroom, and Jerry Fremlin said, okay, don't tell your mother. And from there, he got into her bed and sexually abused her. She said it didn't even occur to her to tell her mother because she felt so unsafe in that house. And then it continued until she was

through puberty, this sort of him exposing himself to her and sort of trying to proposition her.

through puberty, this sort of him exposing himself to her and sort of trying to proposition her.

I mean, so after Andrea told her mother about the abuse in 1992, which is 16 years after it happened, Alice left Jerry Fremlin. And he then sort of unleashed this, like, torrent of letters in which he was...

I mean, so after Andrea told her mother about the abuse in 1992, which is 16 years after it happened, Alice left Jerry Fremlin. And he then sort of unleashed this, like, torrent of letters in which he was...

ostensibly defending himself, except what the letters actually were were like incredibly detailed confessions in which he explained that he was sort of responding to this nine-year-old seductress and that he knows that there are lolitos in the world and he was simply being a humpert, a humpert.

ostensibly defending himself, except what the letters actually were were like incredibly detailed confessions in which he explained that he was sort of responding to this nine-year-old seductress and that he knows that there are lolitos in the world and he was simply being a humpert, a humpert.

Well, she did immediately leave her partner and go to their second home on the west coast of Canada. And Andrea came there to be with her and felt the experience was not about her. It was about her mother as this sort of betrayed lover. Alice Monroe took her Jerry Fremlin back within a month. Within a month. Within a month.

Well, she did immediately leave her partner and go to their second home on the west coast of Canada. And Andrea came there to be with her and felt the experience was not about her. It was about her mother as this sort of betrayed lover. Alice Monroe took her Jerry Fremlin back within a month. Within a month. Within a month.

And, you know, the way she explained it to Andrea was, you know, I loved him too much. I'm too dependent. I'm too old.

And, you know, the way she explained it to Andrea was, you know, I loved him too much. I'm too dependent. I'm too old.

She was a participant in, like, a pretty psychologically abusive relationship and had many of the dynamics of sort of women who try to leave men and don't feel like they can exist without that man. There was a sort of confused idea about...

She was a participant in, like, a pretty psychologically abusive relationship and had many of the dynamics of sort of women who try to leave men and don't feel like they can exist without that man. There was a sort of confused idea about...

Like this sort of idea that she often would tell Andrea that it was misogynistic to expect a mother to sacrifice her own happiness because her husband has done a bad thing. And Andrea really internalized that and would tell her mother that. And like, yes, of course, like no one would ever ask a father to do this, only a mother. Therefore, I cannot ask my mother to do this.

Like this sort of idea that she often would tell Andrea that it was misogynistic to expect a mother to sacrifice her own happiness because her husband has done a bad thing. And Andrea really internalized that and would tell her mother that. And like, yes, of course, like no one would ever ask a father to do this, only a mother. Therefore, I cannot ask my mother to do this.

And then I think there was like this sense for Alice that the writing was the most important thing and that she was sort of.

And then I think there was like this sense for Alice that the writing was the most important thing and that she was sort of.

on a kind of existential level, like living in this, in a way that's hard to describe, where she was sort of watching and not totally present and maybe not able to really feel her daughter's experience, whether it was dissociation or some sort of artistic distance that had become her mode of living.

on a kind of existential level, like living in this, in a way that's hard to describe, where she was sort of watching and not totally present and maybe not able to really feel her daughter's experience, whether it was dissociation or some sort of artistic distance that had become her mode of living.

You know, there's this, that line really resonates because there's this story she wrote years before where a girl is sort of being abused sexually, like sort of being groped on a train. Which one is this? This is Wild Swans. And she says, you know, she just wanted to see what will happen. It's almost the same language, the sense of like...

You know, there's this, that line really resonates because there's this story she wrote years before where a girl is sort of being abused sexually, like sort of being groped on a train. Which one is this? This is Wild Swans. And she says, you know, she just wanted to see what will happen. It's almost the same language, the sense of like...

I'm just going to kind of keep going here because I'm so curious.

I'm just going to kind of keep going here because I'm so curious.

And she describes herself as victim and accomplice. And there's this sense of feeling like an accomplice because of that curiosity, of that wanting it to happen or wanting to not interfere with the action that will come to her.

And she describes herself as victim and accomplice. And there's this sense of feeling like an accomplice because of that curiosity, of that wanting it to happen or wanting to not interfere with the action that will come to her.

Probably. I mean, I feel like it was more helpless than that because, of course, she had deep wounds from her own life. Right.

Probably. I mean, I feel like it was more helpless than that because, of course, she had deep wounds from her own life. Right.

In sort of complex dynamics, it was a power game, sort of. She would be beaten, and then her mother would sort of come to her like a supplicant with all these treats and she would sort of resist and then she would fall back into it.

In sort of complex dynamics, it was a power game, sort of. She would be beaten, and then her mother would sort of come to her like a supplicant with all these treats and she would sort of resist and then she would fall back into it.

And I think, you know, like there's this language of like art monsters, which like sure applies, but I also feel like it's maybe less interesting or true to the experience of, you know, just being very wounded and sort of finding a man who kind of speaks to those wounds.

And I think, you know, like there's this language of like art monsters, which like sure applies, but I also feel like it's maybe less interesting or true to the experience of, you know, just being very wounded and sort of finding a man who kind of speaks to those wounds.

No, no, not to heal them. To allow her to sort of unknowingly replicate patterns from her childhood.

No, no, not to heal them. To allow her to sort of unknowingly replicate patterns from her childhood.

Yeah. I mean... It's just like an incredible level of sort of living, of performing. And I think she's spoken about that a lot in interviews, of feeling like she is two women. One is the woman who's sort of being what other people want her to be. And the other is the woman who's sort of living a solitary, kind of watchful, removed existence. And so...

Yeah. I mean... It's just like an incredible level of sort of living, of performing. And I think she's spoken about that a lot in interviews, of feeling like she is two women. One is the woman who's sort of being what other people want her to be. And the other is the woman who's sort of living a solitary, kind of watchful, removed existence. And so...

Well, the interview with Daphne Merkin was the tipping point for Andrea, where she felt like... What year is it? I think it was 2004. And she felt like she was just being erased. And that was what prompted her to go to the police and report the abuse.

Well, the interview with Daphne Merkin was the tipping point for Andrea, where she felt like... What year is it? I think it was 2004. And she felt like she was just being erased. And that was what prompted her to go to the police and report the abuse.

I talked to the detective and he was, you know, praising her for being this like incredibly straightforward witness who looks him in the eye. And, you know, and she had these incredible letters to back it up. Like she was handing him the perpetrator's confession.

I talked to the detective and he was, you know, praising her for being this like incredibly straightforward witness who looks him in the eye. And, you know, and she had these incredible letters to back it up. Like she was handing him the perpetrator's confession.

It was sort of patched up really quickly. He pled guilty to indecent assault. There was no jury.

It was sort of patched up really quickly. He pled guilty to indecent assault. There was no jury.

Yeah, I was surprised talking to the Toronto Star reporter who ultimately broke the story. But she said when she was first proposed the story after Andrea had sent an email, she said no. She didn't want to do it. She didn't want to take down an idol. She didn't want to jeopardize her relationships and publishing. She'd seen Alice Munro as this emblem of feminism and

Yeah, I was surprised talking to the Toronto Star reporter who ultimately broke the story. But she said when she was first proposed the story after Andrea had sent an email, she said no. She didn't want to do it. She didn't want to take down an idol. She didn't want to jeopardize her relationships and publishing. She'd seen Alice Munro as this emblem of feminism and

And she'd sort of been inspired by the idea that you could tell your own story and take control over your own story. And ultimately, she did change her mind. But even that thought that in 2024, there was like a day-long pause before she was ready to do it. And even before then, Andrea had reached out to a number of journalists, and she got no response.

And she'd sort of been inspired by the idea that you could tell your own story and take control over your own story. And ultimately, she did change her mind. But even that thought that in 2024, there was like a day-long pause before she was ready to do it. And even before then, Andrea had reached out to a number of journalists, and she got no response.

There was this sense of, like, we all need to protect our mother. And this feeling that she was very horribly fragile and that, like, this refrain in the family, like, she'll die if she knows.

There was this sense of, like, we all need to protect our mother. And this feeling that she was very horribly fragile and that, like, this refrain in the family, like, she'll die if she knows.

And the sisters kind of took their cue from the parents. Jenny tried to tell her mother. And actually, Sheila almost told her mother. But they both, there was this kind of mythology of like, we must not impinge on this great, great career and on this fragile woman.

And the sisters kind of took their cue from the parents. Jenny tried to tell her mother. And actually, Sheila almost told her mother. But they both, there was this kind of mythology of like, we must not impinge on this great, great career and on this fragile woman.

I mean, he just basically said, it's not the book I'm writing. I think what he said to me at one point was, every family has a thing like this.

I mean, he just basically said, it's not the book I'm writing. I think what he said to me at one point was, every family has a thing like this.

I try not to respond with judgment. I think I just listened. But we're sitting here. It's just us two. I mean, why write a biography if you're not going to sort of – Yeah, I think, you know, Andrea said in a letter to him, like, he had responded, you know, I'll make sure I didn't, like, say anything too flattering, essentially, about Jerry.

I try not to respond with judgment. I think I just listened. But we're sitting here. It's just us two. I mean, why write a biography if you're not going to sort of – Yeah, I think, you know, Andrea said in a letter to him, like, he had responded, you know, I'll make sure I didn't, like, say anything too flattering, essentially, about Jerry.

And she said, I didn't mean cross out flattering adjectives. I meant, you know, scrap the whole book.

And she said, I didn't mean cross out flattering adjectives. I meant, you know, scrap the whole book.

Right. And she said, you know, to ignore this is to ignore sort of the context in which these stories are written. I think there was this—he was trying to hold onto this idea, and the family members were too, that something—that this was between Jerry and Andrea, like this sort of delusional idea that it was a two-person interaction.

Right. And she said, you know, to ignore this is to ignore sort of the context in which these stories are written. I think there was this—he was trying to hold onto this idea, and the family members were too, that something—that this was between Jerry and Andrea, like this sort of delusional idea that it was a two-person interaction.

I think it's Vandals from 1993. Talk about that story. I read the letters that Alice wrote to her agent and she said, first she wrote that she had started a story and she called it about, it was about the subject. And she said she approached it from different angles and then she felt like she was going to throw up and she burned it. And then two months later, she had written a draft of Vandals.

I think it's Vandals from 1993. Talk about that story. I read the letters that Alice wrote to her agent and she said, first she wrote that she had started a story and she called it about, it was about the subject. And she said she approached it from different angles and then she felt like she was going to throw up and she burned it. And then two months later, she had written a draft of Vandals.

I'm not sure that there's another writer where you can read the short story so many new times and each time feel like your understanding has shifted. To me, there's something beyond the sort of incredibly astute descriptions of people's inner lives. There's something formally that she's sort of turned the short story into and sort of stretched the limits of it.

I'm not sure that there's another writer where you can read the short story so many new times and each time feel like your understanding has shifted. To me, there's something beyond the sort of incredibly astute descriptions of people's inner lives. There's something formally that she's sort of turned the short story into and sort of stretched the limits of it.

It's about a young girl named Liza and her younger brother. And in the summers, they go every day to play with this man and his wife, who has sort of become a mother figure. And the man is sexually abusing the children. It sort of emerges. The story is sort of structured as an investigation into whether The mother knows and chooses to look away or doesn't know but should know.

It's about a young girl named Liza and her younger brother. And in the summers, they go every day to play with this man and his wife, who has sort of become a mother figure. And the man is sexually abusing the children. It sort of emerges. The story is sort of structured as an investigation into whether The mother knows and chooses to look away or doesn't know but should know.

And in that story, there are lines. Or images that are almost lifted from the letter that Andrea wrote to her mother disclosing her abuse and from a letter that Jerry wrote about their relationship. So it feels, you can sort of see pieces of sort of language, sentences that must have like lit her up in somewhere, like made her feel like she had to build a story around it.

And in that story, there are lines. Or images that are almost lifted from the letter that Andrea wrote to her mother disclosing her abuse and from a letter that Jerry wrote about their relationship. So it feels, you can sort of see pieces of sort of language, sentences that must have like lit her up in somewhere, like made her feel like she had to build a story around it.

She did for a while. It must have been horrific. You know, she said that for a while she almost tried to convince herself to be hopeful, and she felt like, okay, here she is. She's getting it out. She's working through it. You know, there was one story, Rich as Stink, that has this image of a daughter wearing a wedding dress that burns.

She did for a while. It must have been horrific. You know, she said that for a while she almost tried to convince herself to be hopeful, and she felt like, okay, here she is. She's getting it out. She's working through it. You know, there was one story, Rich as Stink, that has this image of a daughter wearing a wedding dress that burns.

And it's this, like, and Andrea said, you know, here's this image of innocence destroyed. Like, there's this feeling that her mother must understand. And then eventually Andrea realized that, like, the insights were going to her characters and not to her daughters and not to herself. Yeah.

And it's this, like, and Andrea said, you know, here's this image of innocence destroyed. Like, there's this feeling that her mother must understand. And then eventually Andrea realized that, like, the insights were going to her characters and not to her daughters and not to herself. Yeah.

And then Andrea felt increasingly enraged by sort of the passivity of the characters, the sense of them sort of existing in this like bleak survival mode.

And then Andrea felt increasingly enraged by sort of the passivity of the characters, the sense of them sort of existing in this like bleak survival mode.

You know, I think this sort of is a defining problem in her life in a way, that she appears to be thriving.

You know, I think this sort of is a defining problem in her life in a way, that she appears to be thriving.

Right. And that, you know, in a way, as a child, it was a coping mechanism. There's a sense that, like, she held the key to either destroying her family or keeping their family together. And so they all felt like she was kind of the star of the family, the one who was the most like her mother there.

Right. And that, you know, in a way, as a child, it was a coping mechanism. There's a sense that, like, she held the key to either destroying her family or keeping their family together. And so they all felt like she was kind of the star of the family, the one who was the most like her mother there.

She and I had conversations about that where I would say, like, I'm worried I'm slipping into that state that the siblings are in where you seem to be thriving. Your daughter just said you have this incredible joy for life. You do seem to have this incredible joy. I mean, something she said to me that I found really profound was...

She and I had conversations about that where I would say, like, I'm worried I'm slipping into that state that the siblings are in where you seem to be thriving. Your daughter just said you have this incredible joy for life. You do seem to have this incredible joy. I mean, something she said to me that I found really profound was...

One of the letters from the 70s that Alice wrote was about being raped by a colleague. First, she says she was so numb that she just walked aimlessly around the city and missed the class she was supposed to teach that day. And then later on, she says, well, we'll make a good story.

One of the letters from the 70s that Alice wrote was about being raped by a colleague. First, she says she was so numb that she just walked aimlessly around the city and missed the class she was supposed to teach that day. And then later on, she says, well, we'll make a good story.

Yeah. But Andrea said, you know, when I read that letter, at first I kind of felt pain for my mother because I know that feeling of, you know, aimlessly walking around the city. And then she said the next feeling I had was rage that like she did a day of that and sort of moved on to have this incredibly productive life. And I still feel like I'm walking aimlessly around the city.

Yeah. But Andrea said, you know, when I read that letter, at first I kind of felt pain for my mother because I know that feeling of, you know, aimlessly walking around the city. And then she said the next feeling I had was rage that like she did a day of that and sort of moved on to have this incredibly productive life. And I still feel like I'm walking aimlessly around the city.

I think what was hardest for her was watching Jenny receive the prize from the king of Sweden because Alice was too weak at that point to go to Sweden. And she felt like, oh, you know, the family really is happier that I'm not in it. Now they can live this one reality together.

I think what was hardest for her was watching Jenny receive the prize from the king of Sweden because Alice was too weak at that point to go to Sweden. And she felt like, oh, you know, the family really is happier that I'm not in it. Now they can live this one reality together.

I mean, it's interesting looking at the Nobel Prize presentation. The secretary is pretty on point. He says she writes about the silent and the silenced, the people who don't make choices, the people who only understand sort of aspects of their life years later when it's been revealed. many of her early books are about this kind of

I mean, it's interesting looking at the Nobel Prize presentation. The secretary is pretty on point. He says she writes about the silent and the silenced, the people who don't make choices, the people who only understand sort of aspects of their life years later when it's been revealed. many of her early books are about this kind of

A question that feels almost more alive to me is the way that her writing makes you think about art at what expense. Not to sort of deny that it's art and that it has value as art, but to think about what existed in its wake, sort of who was harmed, what was sacrificed. And that's probably a question that is relevant for many artists, but Alice Munro kind of makes it visible on the page.

A question that feels almost more alive to me is the way that her writing makes you think about art at what expense. Not to sort of deny that it's art and that it has value as art, but to think about what existed in its wake, sort of who was harmed, what was sacrificed. And that's probably a question that is relevant for many artists, but Alice Munro kind of makes it visible on the page.

Like, it felt so literal, like, you know, trading your daughter for art.

Like, it felt so literal, like, you know, trading your daughter for art.

Not as if it were necessarily a conscious decision, but I think Alice did speak with a lot of self-awareness about how she abandoned her mother as she was dying because she felt like she couldn't be the person she wanted to be if she was a good daughter. And that person was a writer.

Not as if it were necessarily a conscious decision, but I think Alice did speak with a lot of self-awareness about how she abandoned her mother as she was dying because she felt like she couldn't be the person she wanted to be if she was a good daughter. And that person was a writer.

Her own mother who was dying, who had Parkinson's.

Her own mother who was dying, who had Parkinson's.

But the repetition, I think that she could speak very honestly and with a lot of self-awareness about how she had to abandon her own mother to become a writer, that I'm sort of feeling that there was a certain awareness probably about how she also abandoned her daughter to be the writer she became.

But the repetition, I think that she could speak very honestly and with a lot of self-awareness about how she had to abandon her own mother to become a writer, that I'm sort of feeling that there was a certain awareness probably about how she also abandoned her daughter to be the writer she became.

I mean, I feel horrified. I feel horrified that it's hard because like, you know, what would she say? Did she think the work is more important? Is that just sort of what the decision she made?

I mean, I feel horrified. I feel horrified that it's hard because like, you know, what would she say? Did she think the work is more important? Is that just sort of what the decision she made?

I think maybe because in that, you know, one of the most like chilling moments for me was when the biographer, Bob Thacker, when I read the conversation between Alice and him about, she was sort of asking him like, what do my daughters want you to do?

I think maybe because in that, you know, one of the most like chilling moments for me was when the biographer, Bob Thacker, when I read the conversation between Alice and him about, she was sort of asking him like, what do my daughters want you to do?

And he was telling her, and she stated really clearly, you know, my daughters want me to admit that I am with a pedophile, but if I did, it would be the only thing people know about me, and I worked a long time to become who I am. And she sort of, I mean, couldn't be more stark than that.

And he was telling her, and she stated really clearly, you know, my daughters want me to admit that I am with a pedophile, but if I did, it would be the only thing people know about me, and I worked a long time to become who I am. And she sort of, I mean, couldn't be more stark than that.

poor, rural upbringing where children are pretty cruel to each other and parents are neglectful and there are a lot of horrific sort of freak events that happen quickly. She kind of writes about each phase of her life as she passes through it, not necessarily about herself, but about people going through sort of crises of middle age and then the crises of late age. And I think her stories...

poor, rural upbringing where children are pretty cruel to each other and parents are neglectful and there are a lot of horrific sort of freak events that happen quickly. She kind of writes about each phase of her life as she passes through it, not necessarily about herself, but about people going through sort of crises of middle age and then the crises of late age. And I think her stories...

are unique in the way that they kind of skip forward, like suddenly you're 15 years forward in time. And someone is sort of only grasping what happened in their past belatedly. The thing that feels sort of most present for me in terms of her writing is the sense that, like, she'd be moving through the world and someone would say something and then those words would feel, like, alive to her.

are unique in the way that they kind of skip forward, like suddenly you're 15 years forward in time. And someone is sort of only grasping what happened in their past belatedly. The thing that feels sort of most present for me in terms of her writing is the sense that, like, she'd be moving through the world and someone would say something and then those words would feel, like, alive to her.

And she would sort of write a story around those words and that this constantly happened to her where sort of... It almost felt like she was moving through the world in a different way, like things had a kind of secret intensity that she could pick up on and that she wanted to capture somehow.

And she would sort of write a story around those words and that this constantly happened to her where sort of... It almost felt like she was moving through the world in a different way, like things had a kind of secret intensity that she could pick up on and that she wanted to capture somehow.

Mm-hmm, last spring.

Mm-hmm, last spring.

Yeah, there was a really interesting letter that she wrote to her agent. And she's saying, like, I cannot go on another book tour in order to sort of be a social self. I have to take so many uppers that I can't sleep for 72 hours. And then in order to sleep, I need to take so many downers that I'm sort of endangering my life. And I'm in this sort of dysregulated state. And she was saying...

Yeah, there was a really interesting letter that she wrote to her agent. And she's saying, like, I cannot go on another book tour in order to sort of be a social self. I have to take so many uppers that I can't sleep for 72 hours. And then in order to sleep, I need to take so many downers that I'm sort of endangering my life. And I'm in this sort of dysregulated state. And she was saying...

I don't know if I can publish another book if it requires a book tour because it sort of does damage to myself.

I don't know if I can publish another book if it requires a book tour because it sort of does damage to myself.

Yeah. And she essentially said... My stepfather sexually abused me when I was nine, and my mother protected him for our entire lives.

Yeah. And she essentially said... My stepfather sexually abused me when I was nine, and my mother protected him for our entire lives.

Jerry Fremlin. And then Jenny, who is Andrea's older sister, and Andrew, who is her stepbrother, both wrote essays as well, sort of talking about the way that the silence had shaped their lives and their family's.

Jerry Fremlin. And then Jenny, who is Andrea's older sister, and Andrew, who is her stepbrother, both wrote essays as well, sort of talking about the way that the silence had shaped their lives and their family's.

Well, it's funny because the morning that the Toronto Star article came out, my friend who's from Toronto just emailed it to me and was like, Rachel, you should write about this. And then over the next few days, a few other people, friends were like, you're writing about this, right? What did that tell you?

Well, it's funny because the morning that the Toronto Star article came out, my friend who's from Toronto just emailed it to me and was like, Rachel, you should write about this. And then over the next few days, a few other people, friends were like, you're writing about this, right? What did that tell you?

I think because it's about so many things that I, you know, memory, sort of family, trauma, the sort of generational dynamics of,

I think because it's about so many things that I, you know, memory, sort of family, trauma, the sort of generational dynamics of,

So Alice was away. Her father was dying. And... Andrea asked if she could sleep in the master bedroom, and Jerry Fremlin said, okay, don't tell your mother. And from there, he got into her bed and sexually abused her. She said it didn't even occur to her to tell her mother because she felt so unsafe in that house. And then it continued until she was...

So Alice was away. Her father was dying. And... Andrea asked if she could sleep in the master bedroom, and Jerry Fremlin said, okay, don't tell your mother. And from there, he got into her bed and sexually abused her. She said it didn't even occur to her to tell her mother because she felt so unsafe in that house. And then it continued until she was...

through puberty, this sort of him exposing himself to her and sort of trying to proposition her.

through puberty, this sort of him exposing himself to her and sort of trying to proposition her.

I mean, so after Andrea told her mother about the abuse in 1992, which is 16 years after it happened, Alice left Jerry Fremlin. And he then sort of unleashed this, like, torrent of letters in which he was...

I mean, so after Andrea told her mother about the abuse in 1992, which is 16 years after it happened, Alice left Jerry Fremlin. And he then sort of unleashed this, like, torrent of letters in which he was...

ostensibly defending himself, except what the letters actually were were like incredibly detailed confessions in which he explained that he was sort of responding to this nine-year-old seductress and that he knows that there are lolitos in the world and he was simply being a humpert, a humpert.

ostensibly defending himself, except what the letters actually were were like incredibly detailed confessions in which he explained that he was sort of responding to this nine-year-old seductress and that he knows that there are lolitos in the world and he was simply being a humpert, a humpert.

Well, she did immediately leave her partner and go to their second home on the west coast of Canada. And Andrea came there to be with her and felt the experience was not about her. It was about her mother as this sort of betrayed lover. Alice Monroe took her Jerry Fremlin back within a month. Within a month. Within a month.

Well, she did immediately leave her partner and go to their second home on the west coast of Canada. And Andrea came there to be with her and felt the experience was not about her. It was about her mother as this sort of betrayed lover. Alice Monroe took her Jerry Fremlin back within a month. Within a month. Within a month.

And, you know, the way she explained it to Andrea was, you know, I loved him too much. I'm too dependent. I'm too old.

And, you know, the way she explained it to Andrea was, you know, I loved him too much. I'm too dependent. I'm too old.

She was a participant in like a pretty psychologically abusive relationship and had many of the dynamics of sort of women who try to leave men and don't feel like they can exist without that man. There was a sort of confused idea about...

She was a participant in like a pretty psychologically abusive relationship and had many of the dynamics of sort of women who try to leave men and don't feel like they can exist without that man. There was a sort of confused idea about...

Like this sort of idea that she often would tell Andrea that it was misogynistic to expect a mother to sacrifice her own happiness because her husband has done a bad thing. And Andrea really internalized that and would tell her mother that. And like, yes, of course, like no one would ever ask a father to do this, only a mother. Therefore, I cannot ask my mother to do this.

Like this sort of idea that she often would tell Andrea that it was misogynistic to expect a mother to sacrifice her own happiness because her husband has done a bad thing. And Andrea really internalized that and would tell her mother that. And like, yes, of course, like no one would ever ask a father to do this, only a mother. Therefore, I cannot ask my mother to do this.

And then I think there was like this sense for Alice that the writing was the most important thing and that she was sort of.

And then I think there was like this sense for Alice that the writing was the most important thing and that she was sort of.

on a kind of existential level, like living in this, in a way that's hard to describe, where she was sort of watching and not totally present and maybe not able to really feel her daughter's experience, whether it was dissociation or some sort of artistic distance that had become her mode of living.

on a kind of existential level, like living in this, in a way that's hard to describe, where she was sort of watching and not totally present and maybe not able to really feel her daughter's experience, whether it was dissociation or some sort of artistic distance that had become her mode of living.

That line really resonates because there's this story she wrote years before where a girl is sort of being abused sexually, like sort of being groped on a train. Which one is this? This is Wild Swans. And she says, you know, she just wanted to see what will happen. It's almost the same language, the sense of like... I'm just going to kind of keep going here because I'm so curious.

That line really resonates because there's this story she wrote years before where a girl is sort of being abused sexually, like sort of being groped on a train. Which one is this? This is Wild Swans. And she says, you know, she just wanted to see what will happen. It's almost the same language, the sense of like... I'm just going to kind of keep going here because I'm so curious.

And she describes herself as victim and accomplice, and there's this sense of feeling like an accomplice because of that curiosity, of that wanting it to happen, or wanting to not interfere with the action that will come to her.

And she describes herself as victim and accomplice, and there's this sense of feeling like an accomplice because of that curiosity, of that wanting it to happen, or wanting to not interfere with the action that will come to her.

Probably. I mean, I feel like it was more helpless than that because, of course, she had deep wounds from her own life. Right.

Probably. I mean, I feel like it was more helpless than that because, of course, she had deep wounds from her own life. Right.

In sort of complex dynamics, it was a power game, sort of. She would be beaten, and then her mother would sort of come to her like a supplicant with all these treats and she would sort of resist and then she would fall back into it.

In sort of complex dynamics, it was a power game, sort of. She would be beaten, and then her mother would sort of come to her like a supplicant with all these treats and she would sort of resist and then she would fall back into it.

And I think, you know, like there's this language of like art monsters, which like sure applies, but I also feel like it's maybe less interesting or true to the experience of, you know, just being very wounded and sort of finding a man who kind of speaks to those wounds.

And I think, you know, like there's this language of like art monsters, which like sure applies, but I also feel like it's maybe less interesting or true to the experience of, you know, just being very wounded and sort of finding a man who kind of speaks to those wounds.

No, no, not to heal them. To allow her to sort of unknowingly replicate patterns from her childhood.

No, no, not to heal them. To allow her to sort of unknowingly replicate patterns from her childhood.

Yeah. I mean... It's just like an incredible level of sort of living, of performing. And I think, you know, she's spoken about that a lot in interviews, of feeling like she is two women. You know, one is the woman who's sort of being what other people want her to be. And the other is the woman who's sort of living a solitary, kind of watchful, removed existence. And so...

Yeah. I mean... It's just like an incredible level of sort of living, of performing. And I think, you know, she's spoken about that a lot in interviews, of feeling like she is two women. You know, one is the woman who's sort of being what other people want her to be. And the other is the woman who's sort of living a solitary, kind of watchful, removed existence. And so...

Well, the interview with Daphne Merkin was the tipping point for Andrea, where she felt like... What year is it? I think it was 2004. And she felt like she was just being erased. And that was what prompted her to go to the police and report the abuse.

Well, the interview with Daphne Merkin was the tipping point for Andrea, where she felt like... What year is it? I think it was 2004. And she felt like she was just being erased. And that was what prompted her to go to the police and report the abuse.

I talked to the detective and he was, you know, praising her for being this, like, incredibly straightforward witness who looks him in the eye. And, you know, and she had these incredible letters to back it up. Like, she was handing him the perpetrator's confession.

I talked to the detective and he was, you know, praising her for being this, like, incredibly straightforward witness who looks him in the eye. And, you know, and she had these incredible letters to back it up. Like, she was handing him the perpetrator's confession.

It was sort of patched up really quickly. He pled guilty to indecent assault. There was no jury.

It was sort of patched up really quickly. He pled guilty to indecent assault. There was no jury.

Yeah. And then there was a letter that he wrote to his lawyer basically saying the trial strategy is to exclude the press. And at the time of the court case, Alice had planned to leave him and to move in with her friend who had an empty house for her. And then abruptly she canceled the plan.

Yeah. And then there was a letter that he wrote to his lawyer basically saying the trial strategy is to exclude the press. And at the time of the court case, Alice had planned to leave him and to move in with her friend who had an empty house for her. And then abruptly she canceled the plan.

Yeah, I was surprised talking to the Toronto Star reporter who ultimately broke the story. But she said when she was first proposed the story after Andrea had sent an email, she said no. She didn't want to do it. She didn't want to take down an idol. She didn't want to jeopardize her relationships and publishing. She'd seen Alice Munro as this emblem of feminism and

And she'd sort of been inspired by the idea that you could tell your own story and take control over your own story. And ultimately, she did change her mind. But even that thought that in 2024, there was like a day-long pause before she was ready to do it. And even before then, Andrea had reached out to a number of journalists, and she got no response.

There was this sense of, like, we all need to protect our mother. And this feeling that she was very horribly fragile and that, like, this refrain in the family, like, she'll die if she knows.

And the sisters kind of took their cue from the parents. Jenny tried to tell her mother. And actually, Sheila almost told her mother. But they both, there was this kind of mythology of like, we must not impinge on this great, great career and on this fragile woman.

I mean, he just basically said, it's not the book I'm writing. I think what he said to me at one point was, every family has a thing like this.

I try not to respond with judgment. I think I just listened. But we're sitting here. It's just us two. I mean, why write a biography if you're not going to sort of – Yeah, I think, you know, Andrea said in a letter to him, like, he had responded, you know, I'll make sure I didn't, like, say anything too flattering, essentially, about Jerry.

And she said, I didn't mean cross out flattering adjectives. I meant, you know, scrap the whole book.

Right. And she said, you know, to ignore this is to ignore sort of the context in which these stories are written. I think there was this—he was trying to hold onto this idea, and the family members were too, that something—that this was between Jerry and Andrea, like this sort of delusional idea that it was a two-person interaction.

I think it's Vandals from 1993. Talk about that story. I read the letters that Alice wrote to her agent and she said, first she wrote that she had started a story and she called it about, it was about the subject. And she said she approached it from different angles and then she felt like she was going to throw up and she burned it. And then two months later, she had written a draft of Vandals.

I'm not sure that there's another writer where you can read the short story so many new times and each time feel like your understanding has shifted. To me, there's something beyond the sort of incredibly astute descriptions of people's inner lives. There's something formally that she's sort of turned the short story into and sort of stretched the limits of it.

It's about a young girl named Liza and her younger brother. And in the summers, they go every day to play with this man and his wife, who has sort of become a mother figure. And the man is sexually abusing the children. It sort of emerges. The story is sort of structured as an investigation into whether The mother knows and chooses to look away or doesn't know but should know.

And in that story, there are lines. Or images that are almost lifted from the letter that Andrea wrote to her mother disclosing her abuse and from a letter that Jerry wrote about their relationship. So it feels, you can sort of see pieces of sort of language, sentences that must have like lit her up in somewhere, like made her feel like she had to build a story around it.

She did for a while. It must have been horrific. You know, she said that for a while she almost tried to convince herself to be hopeful, and she felt like, okay, here she is. She's getting it out. She's working through it. You know, there was one story, Rich as Stink, that has this image of a daughter wearing a wedding dress that burns.

And it's this, like, and Andrea said, you know, here's this image of innocence destroyed. Like, there's this feeling that her mother must understand. And then eventually Andrea realized that, like, the insights were going to her characters and not to her daughters and not to herself. Yeah.

And then Andrea felt increasingly enraged by sort of the passivity of the characters, the sense of them sort of existing in this like bleak survival mode.

You know, I think this sort of is a defining problem in her life in a way, that she appears to be thriving.

Right. And that, you know, in a way, as a child, it was a coping mechanism. There's a sense that, like, she held the key to either destroying her family or keeping their family together. And so they all felt like she was kind of the star of the family, the one who was the most like her mother there.

She and I had conversations about that where I would say, like, I'm worried I'm slipping into that state that the siblings are in where you seem to be thriving. Your daughter just said you have this incredible joy for life. You do seem to have this incredible joy. I mean, something she said to me that I found really profound was...

One of the letters from the 70s that Alice wrote was about being raped by a colleague. First, she says she was so numb that she just walked aimlessly around the city and missed the class she was supposed to teach that day. And then later on, she says, well, we'll make a good story.

Yeah. But Andrea said, you know, when I read that letter, at first I kind of felt pain for my mother because I know that feeling of, you know, aimlessly walking around the city. And then she said the next feeling I had was rage that like she did a day of that and sort of moved on to have this incredibly productive life. And I still feel like I'm walking aimlessly around the city.

I think what was hardest for her was watching Jenny receive the prize from the king of Sweden because Alice was too weak at that point to go to Sweden. And she felt like, oh, you know, the family really is happier that I'm not in it. Now they can live this one reality together.

I mean, it's interesting looking at the Nobel Prize presentation. The secretary is pretty on point. He says she writes about the silent and the silenced, the people who don't make choices, the people who only understand sort of aspects of their life years later when it's been revealed. many of her early books are about this kind of

A question that feels almost more alive to me is the way that her writing makes you think about art at what expense. Not to sort of deny that it's art and that it has value as art, but to think about what existed in its wake, sort of who was harmed, what was sacrificed. And that's probably a question that is relevant for many artists, but Alice Munro kind of makes it visible on the page.

Like, it felt so literal, like, you know, trading your daughter for art.

Not as if it were necessarily a conscious decision, but I think Alice did speak with a lot of self-awareness about how she abandoned her mother as she was dying because she felt like she couldn't be the person she wanted to be if she was a good daughter. And that person was a writer.

Her own mother who was dying, who had Parkinson's.

But the repetition, I think that she could speak very honestly and with a lot of self-awareness about how she had to abandon her own mother to become a writer, that I'm sort of feeling that there was a certain awareness probably about how she also abandoned her daughter to be the writer she became.

I mean, I feel horrified. I feel horrified that it's hard because like, you know, what would she say? Did she think the work is more important? Is that just sort of what the decision she made?

I think maybe because in that, you know, one of the most like chilling moments for me was when the biographer, Bob Thacker, when I read the conversation between Alice and him about, she was sort of asking him like, what do my daughters want you to do?

And he was telling her, and she stated really clearly, you know, my daughters want me to admit that I am with a pedophile, but if I did, it would be the only thing people know about me, and I worked a long time to become who I am. And she sort of, I mean, couldn't be more stark than that.

poor, rural upbringing where children are pretty cruel to each other and parents are neglectful and there are a lot of horrific sort of freak events that happen quickly. She kind of writes about each phase of her life as she passes through it, not necessarily about herself, but about people going through sort of crises of middle age and then the crises of late age. And I think her stories...

are unique in the way that they kind of skip forward, like suddenly you're 15 years forward in time. And someone is sort of only grasping what happened in their past belatedly. The thing that feels sort of most present for me in terms of her writing is the sense that, like, she'd be moving through the world and someone would say something and then those words would feel, like, alive to her.

And she would sort of write a story around those words and that this constantly happened to her where sort of... It almost felt like she was moving through the world in a different way, like things had a kind of secret intensity that she could pick up on and that she wanted to capture somehow.

Mm-hmm, last spring.

Yeah, there was a really interesting letter that she wrote to her agent. And she's saying, like, I cannot go on another book tour in order to sort of be a social self. I have to take so many uppers that I can't sleep for 72 hours. And then in order to sleep, I need to take so many downers that I'm sort of endangering my life. And I'm in this sort of dysregulated state. And she was saying...

I don't know if I can publish another book if it requires a book tour because it sort of does damage to myself.

Yeah. And she essentially said... My stepfather sexually abused me when I was nine, and my mother protected him for our entire lives.

Jerry Fremlin. And then Jenny, who is Andrea's older sister, and Andrew, who is her stepbrother, both wrote essays as well, sort of talking about the way that the silence had shaped their lives and their family's.

Well, it's funny because the morning that the Toronto Star article came out, my friend who's from Toronto just emailed it to me and was like, Rachel, you should write about this. And then over the next few days, a few other people, friends were like, you're writing about this, right? What did that tell you?

I think because it's about so many things that I, you know, memory, sort of family, trauma, the sort of generational dynamics of,

So Alice was away. Her father was dying. And... Andrea asked if she could sleep in the master bedroom, and Jerry Fremlin said, okay, don't tell your mother. And from there, he got into her bed and sexually abused her. She said it didn't even occur to her to tell her mother because she felt so unsafe in that house. And then it continued until she was...

through puberty, this sort of him exposing himself to her and sort of trying to proposition her.

I mean, so after Andrea told her mother about the abuse in 1992, which is 16 years after it happened, Alice left Jerry Fremlin. And he then sort of unleashed this, like, torrent of letters in which he was...

ostensibly defending himself, except what the letters actually were were like incredibly detailed confessions in which he explained that he was sort of responding to this nine-year-old seductress and that he knows that there are lolitos in the world and he was simply being a humpert, a humpert.

Well, she did immediately leave her partner and go to their second home on the west coast of Canada. And Andrea came there to be with her and felt the experience was not about her. It was about her mother as this sort of betrayed lover. Alice Monroe took her Jerry Fremlin back within a month. Within a month. Within a month.

And, you know, the way she explained it to Andrea was, you know, I loved him too much. I'm too dependent. I'm too old.

She was a participant in like a pretty psychologically abusive relationship and had many of the dynamics of sort of women who try to leave men and don't feel like they can exist without that man. There was a sort of confused idea about...

Like this sort of idea that she often would tell Andrea that it was misogynistic to expect a mother to sacrifice her own happiness because her husband has done a bad thing. And Andrea really internalized that and would tell her mother that. And like, yes, of course, like no one would ever ask a father to do this, only a mother. Therefore, I cannot ask my mother to do this.

And then I think there was like this sense for Alice that the writing was the most important thing and that she was sort of.

on a kind of existential level, like living in this, in a way that's hard to describe, where she was sort of watching and not totally present and maybe not able to really feel her daughter's experience, whether it was dissociation or some sort of artistic distance that had become her mode of living.

That line really resonates because there's this story she wrote years before where a girl is sort of being abused sexually, like sort of being groped on a train. Which one is this? This is Wild Swans. And she says, you know, she just wanted to see what will happen. It's almost the same language, the sense of like... I'm just going to kind of keep going here because I'm so curious.

And she describes herself as victim and accomplice, and there's this sense of feeling like an accomplice because of that curiosity, of that wanting it to happen, or wanting to not interfere with the action that will come to her.

Probably. I mean, I feel like it was more helpless than that because, of course, she had deep wounds from her own life. Right.

In sort of complex dynamics, it was a power game, sort of. She would be beaten, and then her mother would sort of come to her like a supplicant with all these treats and she would sort of resist and then she would fall back into it.

And I think, you know, like there's this language of like art monsters, which like sure applies, but I also feel like it's maybe less interesting or true to the experience of, you know, just being very wounded and sort of finding a man who kind of speaks to those wounds.

No, no, not to heal them. To allow her to sort of unknowingly replicate patterns from her childhood.

Yeah. I mean... It's just like an incredible level of sort of living, of performing. And I think, you know, she's spoken about that a lot in interviews, of feeling like she is two women. You know, one is the woman who's sort of being what other people want her to be. And the other is the woman who's sort of living a solitary, kind of watchful, removed existence. And so...

Well, the interview with Daphne Merkin was the tipping point for Andrea, where she felt like... What year is it? I think it was 2004. And she felt like she was just being erased. And that was what prompted her to go to the police and report the abuse.

I talked to the detective and he was, you know, praising her for being this, like, incredibly straightforward witness who looks him in the eye. And, you know, and she had these incredible letters to back it up. Like, she was handing him the perpetrator's confession.

It was sort of patched up really quickly. He pled guilty to indecent assault. There was no jury.

Yeah. And then there was a letter that he wrote to his lawyer basically saying the trial strategy is to exclude the press. And at the time of the court case, Alice had planned to leave him and to move in with her friend who had an empty house for her. And then abruptly she canceled the plan.