Rachel Bernstein
Appearances
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So I think about the people who have cult leaders, let's say, malignant narcissistic partners, people who engaged in abuse of a variety of sorts who, let's say, are in jail. And then they still have the people outside. the jail outside the courthouse chanting, showing their allegiance, setting up websites and support, raising money for their appeals.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
There is a part of people, I think, that wants to not see. And when you decide that you don't want to see something, you can be very good at at keeping blinders on. And it's an important thing to look at why some people do that. I see it as for some people, it would shake their foundation so much that they resist wanting to see.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Other people are going to be worried about what it's going to make them aware of. Like once you start to see, then will it have a domino effect that will be so devastating? Like all the times that you let that person be with your child. And you didn't intervene.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Now do you have to look at all of those times and all of the symptoms your child might have started to have and all the times you didn't jump in to protect them? And all the times maybe you had a sense or an inkling and your conscience was telling you something and you ignored it. That's also very hard to look at.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So I think a lot of people are kind of protecting the perpetrator because they're protecting themselves. And then... You have the people, I think, who are concerned, and rightfully so, that the system is going to be against women and against mothers. Because it's, by and large, women who are engaging in this, and not all, but most. And then... Yes, women are not believed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Women are not believed when they bring a story of rape to the courts. They're not believed when they go to the doctor about having certain symptoms and things are overlooked and they're told they're hysterical. And so I think there are people who get tangled in this in a way that gets messy because they're there championing the rights of women.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And then there are other people who just have a mistrust of the legal system, have a mistrust of the medical system who are also involved in this. But I do think that people who are close, like a father-in-law, I think he might feel like he's being a really good person.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And he might feel like he is able to be the superhero here when everyone else is against someone and he just hasn't seen it or he doesn't want to see it. So it's kind of... For a lot of reasons, it winds up being something that, at the end of the day, leaves the child totally unprotected.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So, right. So yes, there is the sunk cost fallacy. It's also, it gets ramped up when it's not just that you're like putting your money into multi-level marketing. These are the people you love. These are the people who you're trying to protect. Or that you might have to look at having not protected. So I do think that it is very hard for people to be open to seeing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Some people are able and they have more wherewithal. They have more personal strength. They have more ability emotionally to take things on. You're one of those people. And not everyone is like that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And there are a lot of people who would much rather just go back into the dark and do the la, la, la, la, la, Mary had a little, because that's just where they need to live their life because they think that's the only way for them to survive. And it could be that they just don't have the emotional ability to have the courage or the strength. to really look.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
What's also true, and this is actually why a lot of cults and even narcissistic partners will often have the person they're controlling speak on behalf of them and speak on behalf of the cult or do recruiting and kind of share the party line about how wonderful it is and how wonderful this person is.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Because once you say something out loud, there is the part of our social psychology and human psychology that makes us feel like we have to back that up. And we have to stick with the messaging because then who are we? Did we just lie about all of that? We have to save face. So that adds another layer, I think, of the worry of social shame.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And so what are the concerns that are keeping you not seeing and not wanting to see what you probably have already seen, even in little bits? And so to get into that discussion, I think, is where you can actually make the most inroads, helping people talk about their fears. And also that they have to start their life all over again. Maybe they're worried about being single again.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Maybe they're worried about losing their whole community. Maybe they're worried about losing their own parents because if the in-laws are in support, then fine. You know, will they lose their own parents? So what is what's the cost here for them? And what's the worry about that?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And then I think once people get the courage to leave when they feel their feelings are understood, when they feel supported in their abject panic over doing it or really looking. then they can make those decisions in, I think, a bit of an easier way to leave. But they need to know they're not leaving into an abyss, leaving everything and everyone behind, but they'll be supported.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
They'll have community. That actually... It helps quite a bit. But yeah, it takes a lot of courage to do what you're doing, even though it might not feel that way for you because it feels more natural for you. It would probably feel wrong of you to not do it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Oh, it is my pleasure. This is such an important discussion. It taps into so many different issues. And it was a pleasure to speak with you before. And I was really looking forward to what I think is going to feel like a continuation of our conversation today.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Yes, it is stressful for a lot of people and they do sometimes reach their limit with it at some point. And you don't always know what it's going to be that's going to be their tipping point, but there's going to be something. And sometimes it's just a surprising thing and unexpected, but they might get there. It sometimes takes them a lot longer individually.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And they need something that's even more disturbing to really kind of hit them over the head so they really get it. But I think it would be very uncomfortable for me to sit on my hands for a lot of things. And that's why I don't. And at the same time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I've even seen with myself, there are some cases that I've chosen to not take on because it is, I don't know if I have the capacity because it's something that is going to be so disturbing to me. But I also will only say no to a case if I know there's someone else who I can hand it over to. I need to do something.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I need to at least offer a referral, a resource, so I know they're going to be in good hands. even if it's not mine. We sometimes have our limit still to do self-protection. So sometimes people are just more avoidant. And so they know how to jump in again and be the superhero. They know how to jump in in a positive way, like coming to someone's defense.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
But really looking, really acknowledging, really feeling is overwhelming for their system. And they're probably intuiting that about themselves or assuming that about themselves. A lot of people assume it to a greater degree than it's actually true. People will jump in. They'll say, actually, I realized that wasn't as hard as I thought. In fact, it felt a lot better once I was there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
But people will assume it. The other thing that happens, though, is that... you know, I've never met your sister, so I don't know how she operates, but there are people who will come across as the victim, but who give off signs of being terrifying and intimidating. And you can pick it up sometimes in a look. You can see, right, how much they work something and
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And you know that because you've seen it, you know that's going to be turned on you and then some. And so you then go into avoiding all of it because you can see what's going to happen if you kind of cross this person. And you go into, without even realizing it, you are already dealing with behavior modification issues. And just because you'll get the look or something.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I think people might not even be consciously aware that they're being behaviorally modified. But people who are aware of watching that happen can see it happening.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So I think it is like a lot of these things, multi-layered, I do think, and this is not to make light of it, but it's like the Obi-Wan Kenobi defense, you know, you're our last hope.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And there is this, I think, need when some people go into the helping professions, therapists too, you know, and nurses who don't, you know, they're not doing things for nefarious reasons by and large, but they actually are often thanked even more than doctors. Thank you so much for being there and you really got this and you helped others.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
me, you know, really get a message to the doctor and you are on top of it and you can see them smiling and feeling really good about being that person. I think doctors to a certain degree, some of them have that same need and it feels really nice and it also feels really good to
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
if they believe the story, and it sounds like some of them do, that other people were just not as skilled as them, were just not as insightful as them, were just not as sensitive as them, were not willing to take the risk to do the right thing as them, whatever angle works to feed either the ego or affirming that they were the one when there was no one else, It feels so good.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And it can be its own dopamine hit. It can feel almost addictive. And they also want to take the risk of, again, being their champion and fighting off everyone for them. I think there is also something that is hard to look at, but we need to look at it, which is there is sociopathy everywhere. And within the medical profession, you see it too.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I know there are people, I mean, I hear about people who really are these malignant narcissists, people who are sociopaths and go into the medical profession, which is chilling. And so it's a tiny percentage, luckily, but they're there. And so if you're going to be doctor shopping, you're going to find the person who does not at all seem upset by how many drugs they need to give this person.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
In fact, they kind of see people as guinea pigs and they like being able to use them as a means of experimentation. which is horrific. And it reminds me of Nazism. I don't mean to go to an extreme, but they talk about the Nazi party being able to gas people, kill people, maim people, and then come home and hug their children. There is this disconnection.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So, they can still be good people in the community. They can have their name on the side of a building, of a university, and be lauded, but really not be well inside and not handle themselves in a way that's aligned with anything that we would see as conscience. So they're there too. And they're going to be loved by people who really want them to say yes to everything without any pushback.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
You also have people who are trying to help with their own careers. they might feel like if they're getting, there are doctors I know who I've talked to, as they get older, they feel like they're getting pushed out. And sometimes they want to make their mark before they retire. So, some of them are doing it for their own needs. And so, it really is all over the place.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I think then you go into the When it's found out, they realize that they've engaged in something and participated in something that went really against the Hippocratic Oath and the do no harm policy. Then some people then go into avoidance and do that whole human nature thing of la la la. And I don't actually want to look at what I was involved in. And so I am going to go down with the ship.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I'm going to still say that, you know, everything that I did was fine and legitimate and everything that the mom was concerned about was fine and legitimate because I can't afford to do anything other than that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Yeah, it's interesting because when I was growing up, I had a sibling who got involved in a cult, so it was sort of dinner table conversation about, you know, that this can happen to someone and they can get kind of plucked out of their own life and out of their own sense of reality and not know what's real and have a whole misdirection about whom to trust and whom not to. And that...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Okay, so it's a great question. And sometimes it has to do with the person. Sometimes it has to do with their own psychological and physiological makeup, just to see how much they can withstand, how much they can resist the urge to still be with that person, how much they're able to hold on to the truth. And that that is going to guide them and keep them safe and keep them distant.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And it's different for everyone. Also, timing plays a role in this. The age of the person, if they are still in their lives feeling isolated.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
they don't have a lot of other people and so they're going to go to the people who they know like better the devil you know than the devil you don't um one of the things that can happen too is if you have been made to feel so vulnerable in your life and you see this people who were raised in cults people who are told and taught that left to their own devices, their life is going to fall apart.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
They need someone to guide them. They need someone to tell them. They need someone to be the decision maker for them. So they give that over. And that's a whole other form of gaslighting that can be very handicapping for people. If someone has gotten that message that they really are fragile people,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
and that they are not able to function without someone at the helm and kind of taking the reins in their life, then they're gonna feel more prone to staying connected with this person who had a very strong will over them and called the shots. It's also true that there are a lot of people
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
who even after they've been tremendously abused, have so much compassion for the person who abused them that they may have wound up in the hospital many times, but if somebody says something negative about the person who abused them, they'll come to their defense.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
That has to do with that person's conscience, but I think also how much self-concept they have, like how much they feel that they have the right to be angry about And to hold on to that, because also with a parent, if you just stay angry with them, then you're also saying, I'm willing to lose them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
It can be so compelling and so immediate and that you can see this personality shift. And I thought, what is that? I mean, are there people out in corners like trying to hypnotize people? Because you don't see that. So where are these people and how do they get their talents in? And why is it that it's so effective?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I'm willing to not have them in my life because if I don't love them, then I don't have them in my life. So that means that you're also needing a child to be ready for abject loss at a young age, which they may or may not be ready for. And because who is going to fill that space? What's also true is that sometimes the hope of a parent changing doesn't go away.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And so when you see that your mother or father has engaged in something like this. You hope that once they see what they've done and it's been made clear that they're going to apologize, they're going to say something to you that helps affirm for you that they really feel bad, and then you can move on and have a relationship.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I think the hope of that for a lot of people doesn't ever go away, and it keeps them linked to this other person in the hope that they get it. So there are a lot of reasons why people will stay connected. What I think helps people is when they develop a sense, I think, of real courage, it often comes from a sense of confidence. I feel able to be in the world without this person.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
In fact, I'm going to be more able now without this person. This person... may have loved me in her or his own way. But it was that their love turned out to be a poison to me. So I can't accept it. And I can't have them in my life.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
But I can still maybe appreciate the time that they made me lunch and appreciate the time that they did whatever they did for me, because I don't want to throw it all away. So I can hold on to parts, like people also who leave cults. I had a whole community there, or I learned this skill, or I had a relationship with God, or whatever you felt. And I don't want to have to throw that away.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And you don't. You don't have to throw it away. You can hold on to those pieces while still keeping yourself distant and safe from the person and their disorder. And if you can also see that you can really detest the disorder, and you don't have to detest the person, so that you don't have to ask...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
of them to be these hateful people in order to, in order to break free, that it can be both and that they can love this person, but really know that they need to keep themselves very far away from the disorder. But that person is wrapped up in their disorder so that they really physically.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I think just in terms of being able to be accessible, even by phone, they have to keep themselves separate. But that they don't have to be they don't have to feel hatred for their parent almost to give them that allowance. that they can have complicated feelings at the same time. And that would be expected.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
But I think surrounding that person with community, with parental figures, with family is really, really important. And yeah, giving them permission to have the gamut of feelings that might be happening simultaneously, like the anger and the guilt and saying goodbye, et cetera. And the, I'm so glad I'm free, but I'm also experiencing loss at the same time.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I realized as I was graduating with my teaching credentials, which I loved doing, and I, again, still do, I really wanted to do this work. We couldn't find resources at the time for therapists, counselors, social workers, anyone who kind of really knew about this in the 70s, 80s. And I thought, well, why don't I do this too? So I went on for a master's and then just really found it fascinating.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I think people don't know that they can feel all that at once and it's okay.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Yeah, I think it's a really lovely thought that they need that. They need kind of what we kind of call a glide path, something that will make it easy for them to come back in. Because one of the things that sometimes keeps people aligned with the abuser is that they don't feel like they have anywhere else to go.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
They do have the sense that they've burned their bridges outside of this relationship. And so they might stay there for longer because of that. So if you then let them know or the word gets out, even through podcasts like this and other times that you might talk about it, that it really is never too late to be able to have insight. It's never too late to suddenly feel brave enough to really see.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And it's never too late, I think, to change your mind. Because it could be that, like with your brother-in-law and anyone else involved in these situations, they weren't ready to see it. They didn't have all the information. And the reason they didn't have all the information was because they weren't willing to look at a lot of the information and really take it in and really absorb it as truth.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So even if it was presented still, it wasn't really presented to them because they deflected it. And then they can at some point say, now I'm willing to look as torturous as that is, but I need to do that. And I need to do that for my child. Then, yeah, they can really, I think, reach out. And it would be such a shame in that moment if when they're reaching out,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
a family member says, too little, too late, sorry. But instead, to have them really understand that they were in a torturous situation too. They were put in a torturous situation too. And now they have to deal with the sense of responsibility and guilt of allowing things to happen to their loved one. So they have a lot of healing to do.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
In fact, the professor who taught the group therapy course in my master's program actually ran it like a cult, which was very interesting. And I think she didn't do that on purpose to teach a lesson. I just noticed. And I went to the dean to say the following things are happening. And the dean was actually pretty alarmed.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And what they need is not anger directed at them, but they need someone to really make them feel welcome And to be patient and to get them on the road so that they can heal because they're going to need a lot of help.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Right. It's also, I think, an incredibly powerful message to send a child that someone who was so sure of something before has now changed their mind based on new information or based on just being willing to look at it. And when kids see adults actually turning around and saying, I'm so sorry, it is transformative.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
It is so hopeful that there are people in this world who were colluding, who were letting them be harmed, who may have been fostering it to a certain degree in ways that they're not even aware, but just emboldening the person to feel they could get away with it because they felt supported and believed in doing it.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Then they get to see their parent being willing to do something very uncomfortable for them. And that is actually very healing. Because they were put through so much that was uncomfortable for themselves, for their parent. And so then it's a way, I think, to really align with the fact that they were both victimized. by the same disorder. And that can be very unifying.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And it's important to make that relationship happen and not make that person too scared to come forward, too scared to connect. Because why do that to them if they really are saying, oh my goodness, I now see. That should be welcomed, really.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And it helped me realize, too, that this can happen in so many different places and kind of under people's noses and under the guise of teaching. And with the trappings of it being something professional and with a teacher who's teaching at USC in a master's program and should be able to be trusted. Just because someone's wearing a lab coat doesn't mean you can trust them.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
You can find more Rachel in my practice. You can go to my website, RachelBernsteinTherapy.com. I'm based in Los Angeles, but I work with people all over the world. And I have support groups for people who have been involved in cults or who have been abused by their cult leader groups. And for families and friends also have loved ones in cults.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I have the weekly podcast called indoctrination and you can listen to it wherever you listen to podcasts. And so certainly be in touch if you feel like there's a situation you need some help with, or you want to figure out what's happening or how to talk to your loved one about something that you're noticing. I do a lot of
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
talking about talking, how do we have these conversations that are difficult to have and can be really instructive. There are also some videos on my website about how to have those kinds of conversations and also how to find safer therapy because I'm contacted by people who got involved in therapeutic relationships that were not at all healthy. And that makes me so frustrated. I can't tell you.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So I thought it's my time to do some education about that. And then on podcasts like these, and I'm so glad that you're covering this. I know it's not an easy subject at all.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So just because someone's sitting in the therapist chair doesn't mean you can trust them. Just even though someone has taken on the role of parent doesn't mean you can trust them. And so how do you discern? So that sort of became my thing. And that's why I decided after 30 some odd years of doing this, I was listening to so many people's stories in my office and then on Zoom.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Um, and I thought, you know, I want other people to hear this because these are kind of cautionary tales and hearing how people also broke free. Just how do you champion your own rights when it's hard to figure out who to lean on to like, where does that power come from inside of yourself? And also who is out there who can help? And, and so understanding kind of what it, what is true about our,
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
natures as human beings. Like you and I can say, we know a lot about manipulation and control and coercion, but we have this internal locus of control that would stop us from using it against someone. Instead, we use it to teach and to prevent and which is a very different trajectory. And other people would say, oh, look, I have this knowledge. I have this skill.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Let me use it for my own gain, which is a very different kind of personality and very scary.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So it was a class instructing people who were studying to become therapists about ways to run support groups. You walk into a room, the professor is there, and there is a circle of chairs as though it's a support group. And we all sat down and we were told to share about ourselves. So people started sharing and it was fascinating. In the first class, there was already a hierarchy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
There was already the more liked group. the people who had shared more, the people who had more tragedy, the people who had more trauma, the people who revealed more about themselves, they were more liked. And that came through with smiles. And the teacher actually got up and hugged a few people after they shared. And two of the people, she said she couldn't hear them speaking all that clearly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Could they move closer? So they got a seat next to her. And then you could see the next class, people who needed that, who needed to be like at the cool kids table or who just needed that affirmation or needed that. her to be this parent, because she was older than other people in the room by and large.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
She started taking people out for coffee, but only the people who had shared, only the people who had something that really was a trauma of some sort. And there were people who I could see their eyes trailing off as they were telling a story. And then their eyes would come back into the room and they would look to see if she was engaged in what they were saying.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And if she seemed to not be so engaged, they would kind of turn up the volume on their story. And so there were people who would tell a story and then say, I really, you know what, I want to add more to my story. And when people say that, it could be that now they feel comfortable. It could be that they realize it wasn't compelling enough to get them a front row seat.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So there was so much happening in that space. And I remember talking to a friend of the family, a friend of my mom's actually, who was a psychologist for many years. I was telling her about this. And I said, you know, There's also this language of withholding and resistance. So if you don't share, you're withholding and you're not being kind to the other people in the room who have shared.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So there was this guilt and a sense of responsibility you then had to other people to share because after all they did. So why do you feel like you can hide out and be selfish with your information? And then also, why are you being so resistant? What is it about your past that makes you so resistant to sharing?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
So the psychologist who I love, who is a professor, she said, why don't you do a social experiment? This woman's not your therapist. These are not your friends. This is a class. make up a story. So, I just went and the next time there was a class, I just made up a story, which was very uncomfortable for me because I'm a straight shooter.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
And I thought, but it's worth it for this experiment because I was already planning to talk to the dean. I thought, let me have my material that I need to use to bring to him. So, I just said, you know, that time that I talked about having that illness when I was young and I almost died and You know what? It made me fearful for the rest of my life. And it's true. I was very sensitive.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I had Stevens-Johnson syndrome when I was a year and a half. And it can be fatal if it's not treated. And it left me with very sensitive skin and different physical issues. But I got past it. And I just said, I have never gotten past it. The amount of attention paid to me suddenly. People got up. I was surrounded. They hugged me. The teacher invited me to join for coffee later.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
I was seated closer to her. If I needed that, I would have been in. And I would have thought, this is how I get what I need. And here I go, right? It was so dangerous.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
Right, absolutely right. And it's interesting because even with Munchausen by proxy, I could see feeling sorry for the person who engages in this, but it feels to me, and I don't want to say this in such a harsh way, but it gets to like all bets are off when a child is harmed, when a child gets in the way of this and is then inextricably tied. If someone were just...
Nobody Should Believe Me
Case Files 15: Everyday Cults with Rachel Bernstein
out there needing a lot of attention, needing a lot because they felt very empty, I would offer help. I would feel compassion. A lot of these things that we hear about when people have their own issues or their own trauma history, it's an explanation, but it's not an excuse. And so that kind of distinction for me is where it shifts emotionally for me. It's hard to have compassion after a while.