In this week’s episode of Case Files, we’re joined by Rachel Bernstein, a therapist specializing in cults and the host of the podcast IndoctriNation. Andrea and Rachel delve into the crossover between those in the sphere of Munchausen by Proxy perpetrators and cults. Rachel talks about the complexity of cult dynamics, the emotional and psychological impacts on families, and the challenges faced by individuals trying to break free from manipulative environments. Andrea and Rachel touch on navigating relationships with abusive family members and the importance of community, safe spaces, and support. *** Listen to IndoctriNation: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/indoctrination/id1373939526 Order Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-mother-next-door-9781250284273/ View our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/sponsors/ Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: https://www.instagram.com/andreadunlop/ Buy Andrea's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Andrea-Dunlop/author/B005VFWJPI To support the show, go to http://Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nobody-should-believe-me/id1615637188?ign-itscg=30200S&ign-itsct=larjmedia_podcasts) where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit http://MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here: https://apsac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Munchausen-by-Proxy-Clinical-and-Case-Management-Guidance-.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who are the hosts and guest featured in this episode?
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and I am so excited to share today's conversation with Rachel Bernstein, host of the Indoctrination Podcast.
Rachel is a therapist who specializes in cults and cult-adjacent behaviors, and today we are digging into coercive control, manipulation, and tackling the question of why people go on believing things even when they've been presented with mountains of evidence to the contrary, which is a question that feels pretty timely right about now.
Our sixth season is coming in June, and we've got lots of great stuff for you in the meantime, including our deep dive into the medical kidnapping lawsuit against Ratty Children's in San Diego, a look at the Bell Gibson case, which was featured in the new Netflix show Apple Cider Vinegar, and some other fascinating tidbits.
If you are a subscriber on Apple or Patreon, we're talking about the Peacock documentary, The Anatomy of Lies, which is about the Elizabeth Finch case this month, as well as bringing you some updates on the ongoing Kowalski saga in Florida. And just as a reminder, as a subscriber, once again, you'll get all eight episodes of season six on the day they launch in June.
So without further ado, here is my conversation with Rachel Bernstein. Just a quick reminder that my new book, The Mother Next Door, Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy, is on sale right now wherever books are sold. The book was an Amazon editor's pick for nonfiction, and the Seattle Times called it a riveting deep dive into MVP.
And if you are an audiobook lover and you like hearing my voice, which I'm assuming you do since you're listening here... You should know that I narrate the audiobook as well. If you have already read the book, which I know so many of you have, thank you so much.
Please let me know your thoughts and questions at helloandnobodieshouldbelieveme.com and we will bring my co-author, Detective Mike Weber, on for a little book Q&A and post-retirement tell-all special. Thanks for your support.
We are Theresa and Nemo and that's why we switched to Shopify.
The platform that we used before Shopify needed regular updates, which sometimes led to the shop not working.
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Chapter 2: What is Rachel Bernstein’s background and expertise in cults?
And then we can dive into how this all ties together.
Yeah, it's interesting because when I was growing up, I had a sibling who got involved in a cult, so it was sort of dinner table conversation about, you know, that this can happen to someone and they can get kind of plucked out of their own life and out of their own sense of reality and not know what's real and have a whole misdirection about whom to trust and whom not to. And that...
It can be so compelling and so immediate and that you can see this personality shift. And I thought, what is that? I mean, are there people out in corners like trying to hypnotize people? Because you don't see that. So where are these people and how do they get their talents in? And why is it that it's so effective?
I realized as I was graduating with my teaching credentials, which I loved doing, and I, again, still do, I really wanted to do this work. We couldn't find resources at the time for therapists, counselors, social workers, anyone who kind of really knew about this in the 70s, 80s. And I thought, well, why don't I do this too? So I went on for a master's and then just really found it fascinating.
In fact, the professor who taught the group therapy course in my master's program actually ran it like a cult, which was very interesting. And I think she didn't do that on purpose to teach a lesson. I just noticed. And I went to the dean to say the following things are happening. And the dean was actually pretty alarmed.
And it helped me realize, too, that this can happen in so many different places and kind of under people's noses and under the guise of teaching. And with the trappings of it being something professional and with a teacher who's teaching at USC in a master's program and should be able to be trusted. Just because someone's wearing a lab coat doesn't mean you can trust them.
So just because someone's sitting in the therapist chair doesn't mean you can trust them. Just even though someone has taken on the role of parent doesn't mean you can trust them. And so how do you discern? So that sort of became my thing. And that's why I decided after 30 some odd years of doing this, I was listening to so many people's stories in my office and then on Zoom.
Um, and I thought, you know, I want other people to hear this because these are kind of cautionary tales and hearing how people also broke free. Just how do you champion your own rights when it's hard to figure out who to lean on to like, where does that power come from inside of yourself? And also who is out there who can help? And, and so understanding kind of what it, what is true about our,
natures as human beings. Like you and I can say, we know a lot about manipulation and control and coercion, but we have this internal locus of control that would stop us from using it against someone. Instead, we use it to teach and to prevent and which is a very different trajectory. And other people would say, oh, look, I have this knowledge. I have this skill.
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Chapter 3: How can cult dynamics manifest in unexpected places like therapy programs?
So there was this guilt and a sense of responsibility you then had to other people to share because after all they did. So why do you feel like you can hide out and be selfish with your information? And then also, why are you being so resistant? What is it about your past that makes you so resistant to sharing?
So the psychologist who I love, who is a professor, she said, why don't you do a social experiment? This woman's not your therapist. These are not your friends. This is a class. make up a story. So, I just went and the next time there was a class, I just made up a story, which was very uncomfortable for me because I'm a straight shooter.
And I thought, but it's worth it for this experiment because I was already planning to talk to the dean. I thought, let me have my material that I need to use to bring to him. So, I just said, you know, that time that I talked about having that illness when I was young and I almost died and You know what? It made me fearful for the rest of my life. And it's true. I was very sensitive.
I had Stevens-Johnson syndrome when I was a year and a half. And it can be fatal if it's not treated. And it left me with very sensitive skin and different physical issues. But I got past it. And I just said, I have never gotten past it. The amount of attention paid to me suddenly. People got up. I was surrounded. They hugged me. The teacher invited me to join for coffee later.
I was seated closer to her. If I needed that, I would have been in. And I would have thought, this is how I get what I need. And here I go, right? It was so dangerous.
I mean, Rachel, I'm sure you can probably guess where my mind is going hearing this story, that you've just completely pinpointed the reward that perpetrators of this abuse and folks that engage in munchausen behaviors where they're doing it to themselves, like that is what you get, right? Like that is the emotional reward. And it is very real, right?
I mean, I think, like, that sort of sense of being taken care of, and if you were, you know, because we always talk about how these behaviors are maladaptive coping mechanisms, right? And so, like, you can see how if someone who was wired that way had a little bit of that experience, that that might, and then was also a person that,
you know, had these other sort of constellation of things that makes them engage in deception, how that could just get like ratcheted, ratcheted, ratcheted up. And I always do, you know, try to bring this down to earth for people because I think, especially at the extremes, you know, in the cases that we talk about where someone's harming a child,
It seems like such baffling behavior, but I actually think that there is a pretty basic human thing at the core of it, which is that people do need love and care and belonging, and having a crisis is one way. It's not a good way, especially if you're manufacturing the crisis, but having a crisis is one way to get that, right? Yeah.
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Chapter 4: What emotional rewards and manipulations are involved in Munchausen by Proxy and cult behaviors?
There is a part of people, I think, that wants to not see. And when you decide that you don't want to see something, you can be very good at at keeping blinders on. And it's an important thing to look at why some people do that. I see it as for some people, it would shake their foundation so much that they resist wanting to see.
Other people are going to be worried about what it's going to make them aware of. Like once you start to see, then will it have a domino effect that will be so devastating? Like all the times that you let that person be with your child. And you didn't intervene.
Now do you have to look at all of those times and all of the symptoms your child might have started to have and all the times you didn't jump in to protect them? And all the times maybe you had a sense or an inkling and your conscience was telling you something and you ignored it. That's also very hard to look at.
So I think a lot of people are kind of protecting the perpetrator because they're protecting themselves. And then... You have the people, I think, who are concerned, and rightfully so, that the system is going to be against women and against mothers. Because it's, by and large, women who are engaging in this, and not all, but most. And then... Yes, women are not believed.
Women are not believed when they bring a story of rape to the courts. They're not believed when they go to the doctor about having certain symptoms and things are overlooked and they're told they're hysterical. And so I think there are people who get tangled in this in a way that gets messy because they're there championing the rights of women.
And then there are other people who just have a mistrust of the legal system, have a mistrust of the medical system who are also involved in this. But I do think that people who are close, like a father-in-law, I think he might feel like he's being a really good person.
And he might feel like he is able to be the superhero here when everyone else is against someone and he just hasn't seen it or he doesn't want to see it. So it's kind of... For a lot of reasons, it winds up being something that, at the end of the day, leaves the child totally unprotected.
Yeah. I mean, that really resonates with me because I'm just, as we're talking about this, like, thinking back to, you know, the last time that I saw any of these people face-to-face, which was this meeting that we had with a social worker, organized this family meeting, and it was a complete debacle because my sister brought with her, like,
Her husband, her in-laws, three of her husband's aunts, their friends. It was just, like, this entire entourage. It was just me and my mom. And I just remember, like, we were trying to, like, and this is so early. I mean, this is 14 years ago. This is when, you know, this is the first investigation. And I just remember, like, looking at my brother-in-law's mother, Ruth, and
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Chapter 5: Why do family members and supporters often defend perpetrators despite evidence?
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That's encouraging that you say the piece about community and support because, you know, one of the things that we've done with Munchausen Support, the nonprofit that I founded and now my wonderful colleague Bea Yorker is the president of, is these support groups, right? For survivors, but also for family members. When this happened in my family, for my parents and I, like...
it did feel very clear what we had to do it just didn't so i mean do you think when people are sort of like having that like internal battle do people just like compartmentalize that other fear and it just seems like that would be so like psychically exhausting to do over a period of years like does that take a huge toll on people when they're when they're are they like sort of hiding from themselves i mean that seems very stressful
Right.
Yes, it is stressful for a lot of people and they do sometimes reach their limit with it at some point. And you don't always know what it's going to be that's going to be their tipping point, but there's going to be something. And sometimes it's just a surprising thing and unexpected, but they might get there. It sometimes takes them a lot longer individually.
And they need something that's even more disturbing to really kind of hit them over the head so they really get it. But I think it would be very uncomfortable for me to sit on my hands for a lot of things. And that's why I don't. And at the same time.
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Chapter 6: What psychological factors contribute to people remaining loyal or trapped in abusive systems?
Like, I am very used to looking at doctors as either unwitting participants. Right. Where, OK, it's not a doctor because we get this question all the time. Like, why don't they charge the doctors and who put the G-tube or whatever else? Right. well, if that doctor was doing that based on lies, well, that doctor's not culpable for that, right?
And it's very traumatizing for the doctor to have been used in that way. But I think I've really become clued in to how susceptible some doctors are to this In a way that you would think, like, a doctor of all people should understand this abuse, right? Like, they should have the framework for being able to understand this abuse.
And what you see is, like, you know, again, like, I think one of the very culty things about these perpetrators is they really engage in this, like, splitting behavior, right? So it's like... Every doctor who won't go along with what they want to do is the enemy and they're out to get them. Every family member who doubts them is like you're you're it's a very us and them dynamic.
And so what they tend to do in this like doctor shopping pattern is like what I sort of now believe is like they're looking for a mark. Right. They're looking for someone who will go along with their version of reality. And then in some cases and then, of course, that doctor is the hero.
So it's really become like I've really seen where the health care system from like actually championing these perpetrators is. you know, on down to just like their unwillingness to report, which is again, a behavior that I think makes sense out of self-interest, but it's still not acceptable. So like, what do you think in that sort of like professional context?
Like what's going on with those doctors? Why would they do that?
So I think it is like a lot of these things, multi-layered, I do think, and this is not to make light of it, but it's like the Obi-Wan Kenobi defense, you know, you're our last hope.
And there is this, I think, need when some people go into the helping professions, therapists too, you know, and nurses who don't, you know, they're not doing things for nefarious reasons by and large, but they actually are often thanked even more than doctors. Thank you so much for being there and you really got this and you helped others.
me, you know, really get a message to the doctor and you are on top of it and you can see them smiling and feeling really good about being that person. I think doctors to a certain degree, some of them have that same need and it feels really nice and it also feels really good to
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Chapter 7: How important is community and support for individuals trying to leave manipulative environments?
Okay, so it's a great question. And sometimes it has to do with the person. Sometimes it has to do with their own psychological and physiological makeup, just to see how much they can withstand, how much they can resist the urge to still be with that person, how much they're able to hold on to the truth. And that that is going to guide them and keep them safe and keep them distant.
And it's different for everyone. Also, timing plays a role in this. The age of the person, if they are still in their lives feeling isolated.
they don't have a lot of other people and so they're going to go to the people who they know like better the devil you know than the devil you don't um one of the things that can happen too is if you have been made to feel so vulnerable in your life and you see this people who were raised in cults people who are told and taught that left to their own devices, their life is going to fall apart.
They need someone to guide them. They need someone to tell them. They need someone to be the decision maker for them. So they give that over. And that's a whole other form of gaslighting that can be very handicapping for people. If someone has gotten that message that they really are fragile people,
and that they are not able to function without someone at the helm and kind of taking the reins in their life, then they're gonna feel more prone to staying connected with this person who had a very strong will over them and called the shots. It's also true that there are a lot of people
who even after they've been tremendously abused, have so much compassion for the person who abused them that they may have wound up in the hospital many times, but if somebody says something negative about the person who abused them, they'll come to their defense.
That has to do with that person's conscience, but I think also how much self-concept they have, like how much they feel that they have the right to be angry about And to hold on to that, because also with a parent, if you just stay angry with them, then you're also saying, I'm willing to lose them.
I'm willing to not have them in my life because if I don't love them, then I don't have them in my life. So that means that you're also needing a child to be ready for abject loss at a young age, which they may or may not be ready for. And because who is going to fill that space? What's also true is that sometimes the hope of a parent changing doesn't go away.
And so when you see that your mother or father has engaged in something like this. You hope that once they see what they've done and it's been made clear that they're going to apologize, they're going to say something to you that helps affirm for you that they really feel bad, and then you can move on and have a relationship.
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Chapter 8: What challenges do therapists face when working with cult survivors and abusive family dynamics?
And so I do think, like, being able to hold both things is really important. helpful. And yeah, and I think like that, that is part of the reason, you know, and again, I understand why people feel the way they feel about these perpetrators and angry and all of that stuff. And it's certainly like the other people who've been hurt by that person, and then had to watch them do this to children.
There's a lot of reason to feel angry and hateful and, you know, all those things. But I think like, I do think, you know, I see where it's much more helpful to just, like, let the person have whatever complicated feelings they have as long as they understand that they need to be safe in that relationship.
Then, like, you know, watch a lot of survivors dealing with this of, like, how do I have any relationship with this person? Like, do I – is it okay to, like –
have some communication with them or none or you know it's really really complicated so i love the idea of just really like honoring that um and i think like i don't know too like in terms of people who maybe have been like adults who were around and came to the realization at some point um
I think it's really, I think it's really important that we make it safe for people to come forward, even if they have been in the past, not helpful to the situation. You know, like I, like, listen, the reality will never happen. But the reality is if like Andy, you know, my brother-in-law called me tomorrow, I'd be grateful to him. I'd still help him, you know, do whatever we could.
Um, again, not going to happen, but like, how do we make it safe for people who may have been collaborators unwittingly or like maybe long past the point when they should have known, like, how do we make it so that they can still come forward? Because you don't want to cut that. You don't want to cut that as a strategy off. Like coming to later is better than never coming to it all. Right.
It's like, how do we create an environment where people feel like they can take that, take that risk?
Yeah, I think it's a really lovely thought that they need that. They need kind of what we kind of call a glide path, something that will make it easy for them to come back in. Because one of the things that sometimes keeps people aligned with the abuser is that they don't feel like they have anywhere else to go.
They do have the sense that they've burned their bridges outside of this relationship. And so they might stay there for longer because of that. So if you then let them know or the word gets out, even through podcasts like this and other times that you might talk about it, that it really is never too late to be able to have insight. It's never too late to suddenly feel brave enough to really see.
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