Rachel Maddow

It's called The Best People, where Nicole interviews some of the top minds and thinkers in the country about how to handle this moment we're living through right now. She also talked to me on the podcast for some reason. I'm not sure how I snuck in. The podcast just launched today. It's already number one on Apple Podcasts. Nicole, my friend, congratulations. And thanks for being here.

I know this is a really busy day for you.

I know this is a really busy day for you.

I will say Mike sort of won most improved award. Remember when he first started doing remote shots, doing COVID, it always looked like he was being held hostage. You know what I mean? Like he really managed the like, I'm here against my will thing. And gradually I think you kind of dressed him up and gave him some stuff that made it look like he didn't need rescuing.

I will say Mike sort of won most improved award. Remember when he first started doing remote shots, doing COVID, it always looked like he was being held hostage. You know what I mean? Like he really managed the like, I'm here against my will thing. And gradually I think you kind of dressed him up and gave him some stuff that made it look like he didn't need rescuing.

Nicole, I wanted to talk to you about this Ukraine Jones story, just because, I mean, I feel like you're one of my friends who understands how my brain works on this sort of thing. I think your brain works in sort of the same ways. Like, it is an incredible war story about Ukraine's capability and their resilience and their...

Nicole, I wanted to talk to you about this Ukraine Jones story, just because, I mean, I feel like you're one of my friends who understands how my brain works on this sort of thing. I think your brain works in sort of the same ways. Like, it is an incredible war story about Ukraine's capability and their resilience and their...

creativity and the way they have just done this, you know, like David versus Goliath. They've accomplished things that nobody thought they could. But it also does have international strategic implications for every country in the world that's kind of in Russia's position in terms of thinking about its own defenses, thinking about its own nuclear deterrence.

creativity and the way they have just done this, you know, like David versus Goliath. They've accomplished things that nobody thought they could. But it also does have international strategic implications for every country in the world that's kind of in Russia's position in terms of thinking about its own defenses, thinking about its own nuclear deterrence.

I wondered what your reaction was when you learned about that story this weekend.

I wondered what your reaction was when you learned about that story this weekend.

Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting.

Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting.

I feel like for me, this was a great, like humbling reminder that as much as we focus on what's going wrong in our own government and what's going wrong in our own country because of this, you know, fundamentally incompetent and malicious government that we've got, the rest of the world is continuing not just to react, but to innovate and adjust and to move on without us.

I feel like for me, this was a great, like humbling reminder that as much as we focus on what's going wrong in our own government and what's going wrong in our own country because of this, you know, fundamentally incompetent and malicious government that we've got, the rest of the world is continuing not just to react, but to innovate and adjust and to move on without us.

And to have somebody in a country as powerful as ours realign us so that we're an ally of Russia and the rest of the world, the rest of the free world, now still allied with Ukraine, gets to adapt to that and gets to adjust to that and gets to build their own strength and capability with essentially seeing us as an adversary rather than an ally, let alone a protector.

And to have somebody in a country as powerful as ours realign us so that we're an ally of Russia and the rest of the world, the rest of the free world, now still allied with Ukraine, gets to adapt to that and gets to adjust to that and gets to build their own strength and capability with essentially seeing us as an adversary rather than an ally, let alone a protector.

I just feel like, God, the world is so unpredictable now with us absenting ourselves from our traditional leadership role. And it makes me what I think I was thinking about this in your show, because you're so good at finding the smart people, the best people, the people who have the most expertise to bring to bear in any given subject. Do you feel like the sort of

I just feel like, God, the world is so unpredictable now with us absenting ourselves from our traditional leadership role. And it makes me what I think I was thinking about this in your show, because you're so good at finding the smart people, the best people, the people who have the most expertise to bring to bear in any given subject. Do you feel like the sort of

expert universe of American know-how on national security issues is off the table forever because of the way our government's behaving? Or do you think in future the United States can ever sort of regain any of our trusted position on issues like this?