Rev. James Martin
Appearances
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Do you want to pray before we start? By all means. Yeah. So, loving God, we thank you for bringing us together. We ask you to help us to proclaim the gospel and open our lips that our mouth might declare your praise. Amen.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
That's a great question. I'm not a theologian. I'm not a moral theologian. So I'll try my best to answer that.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
I would say reverence for the other person. I would say sex and sexuality is something that is sacred. not using the other person, and the value of monogamous relationships. Well, I mean, Jesus doesn't teach much on marriage. He teaches a lot on divorce, right? His first miracle is at a wedding feast, so there's a positive outlook.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
He's pro that marriage. He favored that one. He, of course, himself is celibate. He doesn't get married for a number of reasons. But I would say that's the distinctive Christian contribution today is which is reverencing the other person and not using the other person and seeing sexuality as sacred and deep and not something to be, you know, just kind of used in a relationship.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And I think that is different than a lot of liberal, secular understanding of sexuality. I mean, when people come to me in the confessional about that, that's one of my first questions, you know, are you reverencing the other person, right? How are you treating the other person?
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
So, and I think that's different because I think in today's what Pope Francis would call throwaway culture, that's not accepted by every liberal secular person, even a good person.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Absolutely. I think, yes. I mean, in terms of the sacrament of marriage. But I think what Pope Francis was trying to do... you know, was to remind ourselves that we're also dealing with individuals, right? And so we talk about, you know, we've talked about divorce, masturbation. I brought it up just for the record, sorry.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
You know, it comes up in the, I don't know any man that comes to the confessional, at least in my experience, who does not confess that. So it's, you know, it's common. There's also a sense of, and homosexuality, right, in terms of all these topics.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
You know, one of the things that Pope Francis is trying to teach, and I think is Christian teaching, is encountering the person where they are and as they are, right? And, you know, he said, the name of God is mercy.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
So, yes, we have, obviously, we have all these rules, we have all these traditions, you know, but what is the pastoral application of these things in the confessional, in a person's life? And I do think there is something of a over-focus on some of these topics. And I think Pope Francis was trying to remind us that there are other topics.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Because I feel like there aren't many Catholics in the world who don't understand what the Catholic Church teaches on marriage and homosexuality and masturbation and things like that. There aren't a lot of Catholics that don't know what the Church teaches on marriage. poverty, the environment, those kinds of things. So I think this is what Pope Francis was trying to do.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Interestingly, in an interview with Jesuit magazines, including America in 2013, he said something like, I'm paraphrasing, I'm not changing anything. He said, but when it comes to questions of sexuality and abortion and things like that, I feel like people know it and it's time to, like a good teacher, move on to the next lesson.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And I found that a really interesting insight because I think what people saw is his ignoring that Was rather him saying, you know, we've understood this and now let's move on to other topics, which I think have been less stressed. You know, poverty, you know, the stuff you pointed out and the environment, which was a surprise.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And we certainly don't want to say that we're in the same place that we would be a thousand years ago about homosexuality, because we've learned things. And so I think, you know, when you look at, for example, you know, the Second Vatican Council, it's the church in the modern world, not the church against the modern world or the church frustrating the modern world.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And so I think it's, this is where discernment comes in, honestly. And I know people might roll their eyes and say, oh, that's just like a buzzword. I think he really is, he really was the pope. trying to help us reflect on the signs of the times, say, where is the Holy Spirit active? What am I calling people to do? What am I calling the church to do?
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
But that's an inherently frustrating and messy and open process. Discernment is really open-ended, and that's okay, right? So I don't know where it's going to end up, but I think I would be- How do you think the modern world is going right now? Oh, not too well. Not too well, okay.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
I think the church is very oppositional to the modern world as it is now. I mean, you know, just talking about the poor. Yeah. and migrants and refugees and the sick. And I think that's very countercultural. I think the thing is that, you know, Pope Francis, like all good church leaders, preached the gospel, you know, as he understood it. And if it became political, so be it.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
But I don't see him... And in my conversations with him, one of the things he didn't like was ideologies. He was allergic to that. He wanted to meet people where they were. And if he... Got the sense that you were pushing an agenda or an ideology. He didn't want any part of that. And so this is this person who has a deeply pastoral heart. And I think that's a wonderful thing for the church.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Yeah, and I think that's key to understanding who he was. He was a Jesuit for most of his life, a priest for just almost as long. And that's the first way that we Jesuits came to know him. Interestingly, he had something of a checkered relationship in the Jesuits because he was, by his own admission, he was rigid and authoritarian, he said. So when he was elected, not every Jesuit was happy.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Yeah. I mean, Tom Reese, our editor at America Media, was fired by Cardinal Ratzinger, which was his right to do. The future Pope Benedict. Correct. Yeah. And he often said that I got fired for writing things and publishing things that Pope Francis is now saying, you know, from the pulpit. So I think that's a fair comment. People felt freer to express themselves. Yeah.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
No, you know, here's the thing. Look, I didn't always agree with St. John Paul II or Benedict, but I tried not to be critical. And also I was careful not to go out of bounds and try to color in the lines. I think, you know, as a Jesuit, I mean, we've been dealing with popes for 450 years, and so you have to, in a good way, you have to come to peace with that. And also, like, this is spiritual.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
They come and go, but the Jesuit order continues. No, what I meant was, you know, in a good way, we take vows of obedience, and we have a special vow of obedience with regard to missions to the pope. So we see him as our leader. And even if we don't disagree with them— We go along, we try to support his way of being Pope.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
So whoever the next Pope will be, I'll work with him and try to promote what he's saying. And sure, yeah. I'm actually very excited to see who it's going to be. I think you're going to see someone who's a little bit more moderate, a little bit more of a stabilizing influence.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Here's the answer you don't get from Jesuits a lot. I don't know. That's interesting, because I would say that each person who comes in is going to have his or her, his, obviously, predilection and sort of way of governing. My sense, you might disagree with this, my sense is that Francis was a lot more patient with his critics, who were much more vocal than critics under St.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
In fact, in the conclave that elected Pope Benedict XVI in 2005, he was on the list. And interestingly, I was reading a piece in the Times that had a list of all the electors. And I said to a fellow Jesuit who was much older and who had worked in Rome, I said, who is this Jorge Mario Bergoglio? And this old Jesuit said he'd be terrible.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
John Paul or Pope Benedict. And I think he gave them a lot of leeway. But yeah, I mean, eventually he brought the hammer down on some people. But I think that was after a long time.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Well, my sense was that he was very patient with people who were above and beyond. I mean, I don't know any example under John Paul or Benedict— cardinals and archbishops who were so vocal, you know, calling him a heretic and an apostate and a false pope. I just didn't see that under John Paul and under Benedict. So I think he was more patient about
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Now, in terms of the Latin Mass, here's how I see that. As I understand it, the Second Vatican Council encouraged the church to turn towards the vernacular. That was in general what the council was trying to do. The Latin Mass continued in certain places.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Pope Benedict published something that said that it needs to be more widely accepted and more easily celebrated by priests without special permission and stuff. And this is how I understand, I know you might disagree, but that document was saying that this is a kind of testing period to see how it works.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And one of the reasons I think Pope Francis limited it, limited the use, was because he saw that kind of testing period lead to division, where certain people say, we're more Catholic than you are. Paul VI's mass doesn't count. And so I think he wanted to really sort of stop that. I know that upsets conservatives. And let me just say that I can certainly understand that because it's such a value.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Well, that's a really interesting question. We had an article in America Media by John Baldovin, who was a liturgical theologian that talked about the Latin Mass. And, you know, to go back to church unity, and, you know, I don't know if I would have made the same decision as the Pope, you know, in terms of the limiting. But, you know, I think he saw it as a threat to unity.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
But, you know, he soon proved to be a real model Jesuit and was always very close to the Jesuits during his pontificate. And that's one of the ways I interacted with him and how I understood him. I think a lot of the stuff that he did could be mystifying to people, questions of discernment, freedom and difference. all Jesuit concepts. And so I think that's key to understanding who he was.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
I think that's, you know, that was behind that document that he came out with. And so... If we're going to say that we need unity in terms of sexual teaching, right, and not breaking the church on that, I think he didn't want to break the church on that as well, on the Latin mass. That was his judgment. Yeah. So, like I said, I don't know if I would have done it exactly the same way.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Well, first of all, I think I may have said this to you before. I'm more traditional than you might think. That's the first thing. So devotion to the saints, to the blessed sacrament, to lords, too. So some of these things are right up my alley. You know, my general rule is whatever brings you closer to God. And if you like the Latin Mass, wonderful.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
If you like to go to a Taizé service, wonderful. If you like San Egidio, I know this is all inside baseball stuff to non-Catholics, but wonderful. And it's not surprising that people would turn to more traditional ways of being Catholic and traditional rites, you know, in kind of times of uncertainty. I think there's a certain comfort to that. Interesting times. Interesting times.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
There's a certain comfort to that. And I think it's great. Here's the dividing point for me. as long as people who say that don't say that other Catholics are somehow not Catholic. So I think as long as there's openness, right, to both sides, as long as you're not what a friend of mine calls a rigidarian, then I think it's great.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Look, I grew up in the 1960s, 1970s Catholic Church, which a lot of people deride as beige Catholicism, right? Felt banners. But you know what? It meant a lot to me, and it still means a lot to me. And I go back to my home parish, which is this big 1960s A-frame parish outside of Philadelphia, and I love it. And if that appeals to me, that's great.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
If someone else goes to a high mass, a high solemn mass that's in Latin at some cathedral and that appeals to them, that's great. So I think the key is not cutting off the other side and really taking the other person's spirituality and faith seriously. And I do see that in Catholicism. I do see a lot of, you're not really Catholic if you do this or that.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And that's frustrating because the Catholic Church really should be Here comes everyone, particularly in spirituality. I'm really strong about that. I really hate when people say, you're not a good Catholic because you don't pray the rosary, or you're not a good Catholic because you don't go to Taizé services or San Egidio, right, or something that's a little more liberal.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
You know, I hope not, given that we're speaking right after Easter and we've just welcomed... One would think there wouldn't be. But I really do think, for me, the trouble is when people say, because you don't do this, you're a bad Catholic. And it's basically because you don't do what I like doing. And that's really frustrating to me.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
He was always a good Jesuit. When did you meet him for the first time? I met him for the first time after a mass at Casa Santa Marta, very briefly, and just shook his hand and he said, pray for me, reza por mi. And then really in earnest, in 2017, he appointed me as a consultor for the Dicastery for Communication, which is a very low-level appointment for the communications office.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
You know, and also, I'll just say, I mean, this is not to gather sympathy, but, you know, when I tell people that I love the rosary, I went to Lourdes, people kind of cock their head at me and say, how can you believe in that stuff? And I say, well, I'm Catholic. And that, to be kind of diminished that way is a very strange feeling.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Which is a good question. That's an easy question, actually, which is, you know, the Holy Spirit. Yes. Truly. I mean, the Holy Spirit holds the church together, and we have to believe that. And the Holy Spirit's guiding the church. We really have to believe that. Jesus Christ, who is present to us through the Spirit, holds us together. We believe that. So that's all true.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
But in terms of the person.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Well, I would say the second part of that answer was the Pope and the primacy of St. Peter. And I think that's why it was so focused on unity, right? And all the different things we're talking about, sexual teaching, traditional Latin mass, you know, that's the constant theme of unity and hopefully the hierarchy. And hopefully our local priests and lay leaders.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Those are all kind of unifying forces, we hope. But really, the unifying person is the pope, which is, you know, that's what he was trying to do.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And I was at a- Because of your expertise in podcasting and other- And when we were at the audience, I introduced myself, and he said, ah, I'd like to have an audience with you. And I said, oh, yo, tambien. And in September 2019, we had our first one-on-one meeting.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
protestant churches could break up and split apart how much people who really disagree with each other inside catholicism tend to stay in catholicism yeah and i really do think that's less a political thing and more of a spiritual thing i think people really want to stay in the church because they believe in the catholic church they believe in the apostolic succession they believe in the pope they believe this goes back to saint peter i just think that's so powerful i mean it's in
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Someone said to me recently or asked me recently, do you think there's going to be a schism because of homosexuality and the teaching of the church and same-sex unions and all that, the blessing stuff? And I just said, you know, these people who are sort of opposed to what the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith published. They want to be Catholic.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
You know, they don't want to leave the church. Who wants to leave the church? So I think it's much more a spiritual question. And even when Pope Francis was asked, do you think there'll be a schism? He said, no, because I think he understood that. People don't want to leave. Why would they? They might want to see changes.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And the other thing is, you know, for priests and cardinals and members of religious order, we've also made promises and vows not to leave. Right. No, no.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
That's a great question. I definitely think, you're right, that the bishops have less authority in the wake of the sex abuse crisis. I think the Pope still has a great deal of influence. And I think it's, as you were saying earlier, it's not just his words, but it's his deeds. I think that they can help, those kinds of gestures can help people understand Catholicism and Christianity more.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
That's an influence, right? I think when he does speak out on the death penalty on migrants and refugees on the environment, I do think Catholics listen, maybe not to their local bishop. I've often had the experience of saying to someone, you know, I mean, both of us are very attentive to these things. I'll say, by the way, what diocese are you in? And they won't know.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
I'll say, well, I remember saying to a very good Catholic whose name I won't remember, well, you must know what diocese you're in. When the priest says the Eucharistic prayer and puts the bishop's name in, what does he say? I don't know. But they know the pope. And so I think he can have a great deal of influence. And I, you know, Ross, it's interesting.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
You're talking about that, where he embraced that man with the skin condition. And, you know, I looked at that and I was terribly moved. And I thought, you know, he's influencing me. And he didn't say anything to me. I just saw this picture. So... So that's a kind of influence and that's a kind of teaching and that's a kind of unifying effect. Right. You know what I mean?
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
So beyond the kind of hot button issues we were talking about. So the answer is, yes, he can have an effect. And, you know, local bishops can do that from time to time. I don't want to dump on the bishops, but I think people see them less.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And it was really, I'll just be honest, it was really life-changing, just being with him, talking about these issues, and just feeling completely relaxed. He was very warm and friendly. One of the things I want to share with listeners and viewers is he was just a nice guy. He was just a nice guy, friendly, fun guy. And at the end of the meeting, I'd never spoken to a Pope before.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Yeah, I think that's accurate. I think it's that, you know, people probably are looking at their secular wives, their secular lifestyles that might not have got it and say, this feels empty. And I really believe that in every person's heart, there's a natural desire for God. And I think if that's suppressed, you know, it eventually comes back.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And I think that's what's happening kind of culture-wide. I think people are finding the secular world kind of empty, right? I mean, our hearts are restless until they rest in you, said St. Augustine. I think that's what's happening, finally. I'm surprised it took this long, actually. But yeah, I don't think it has a whole lot to do with, you know, the local bishop or even the local priest.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
It's a kind of desire for God. And in that desire, I think we have to meet people, right? And they might not, there are churches often people say, And sometimes they're Jesuit churches. These are the churches for the people sort of on the way in and on the way out. And I think we have to meet them there. We have to meet them there.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And I think that's one of the things that Pope Francis was trying to do. I would say that one of his most memorable images was the church as a field hospital, which he used in the interview with America Media in 2013, which I thought was I'd never heard before. And it's just such a great image. It's open. I always think of MASH, you know, the old TV show. It's open. People are coming in.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
They're getting their wounds dressed. They're getting treated. And then later, one of the images in the synod was the title of one of the working documents was enlarge the space of your tent, which I thought was so beautiful.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And so I think one of the things that Pope Francis was trying to do is to reach out exactly to people like that who might be curious and not understand the church and say, you know, welcome. This is about mercy and love and you're welcome here.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Gosh, what a great question. Now, you're going to think I'm making this up, but I want him to be a holy man who proclaims the gospel. I don't think you're making that up, but I think it's… I think there was a lot of convergence at the Senate, big word that we used a lot at the Senate, on the question of women's ordination into the diaconate.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And at minute 25, it was a half hour meeting. I thought, oh my gosh, I've been talking the whole time about this one issue. Maybe he wants to talk about something else. So I said, Holy Father, what can I do for you? Meaning, you know, you want to talk about the American church or the Jesuits or something.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
I think there's actually a lot of convergence in different parts of the world. So I'd like to see him at least continue that conversation, which would be a big deal. You're still staying, though, with the culture.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Let me think about that. Where should he go? I think they've all... They've gone everywhere.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
That would be the first place I would go. Where? Gosh, well, I'm a little biased. I worked with refugees in East Africa. I'd go to a refugee camp in northern Uganda to greet the Sudanese. Okay. That's a great question. That's a good answer. I'll accept it. But let me think. There's so many other places. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Well, let me tell you, if I were Pope, which will never happen in a trillion years, I would go to Lourdes first. Okay. Yeah, no question. And then I would go to the Sea of Galilee. I mean, this is all selfish. I would go there to pray. Yeah. And then I would, it's never going to happen. And then... I go to Knock. I love Knock. This is in Ireland. In Ireland, I love that.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
But of course, this is more... This is more tourism, Catholic tourism. This is all more like for the Pope's kind of personal spiritual life. But I think going to, gosh, a refugee camp in northern Uganda, Lourdes, the Sea of Galilee, Um, and then some big crazy city like New York. Right.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Uh, you know, I probably go back to Argentina cause I know the people in Argentina were upset that he didn't come back, which was very interesting. Yeah. Kind of, kind of mysterious.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Where would, where would you, where would you have him go?
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
He said, you can continue this ministry in peace, which I found extremely encouraging and moving. And, you know, he didn't have to do that. And he didn't have to meet with me a couple of times. And we would exchange notes over email in his little kind of crabbed handwriting. How would you get those? Would you get those notes scanned via email? Yeah.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
They have that expression in Italian, entra papabile uscita cardinale, which means you enter a possible candidate, you leave a cardinal. You know, I really don't know. I think they're going to go for someone who's a little bit more moderate, less revolutionary. Some people have told me that the Italians feel like this is their last chance, right?
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Because the church is kind of moving toward the global south, and Francis certainly appointed a lot of bishops from there. I don't know. I look at the same candidates that everybody looks at. Paroline, Pizzabala, Zuppi, Tagli. I really don't know. It's kind of exciting because I think it's pretty wide open. There's something interesting going on.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
I think people misunderstand this statistic that Pope Francis has appointed whatever, 75%, 80% of the cardinals, as thinking they're all going to be in lockstep with him. If you think about it, and I'm sure you know this, Francis really tried to name cardinals from far-flung places, right? Small dioceses. Exactly.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
I know the cardinal archbishop of Mongolia now, who's a lovely guy, Giorgio Marengo, Papua New Guinea, right? So it was less about... the kind of people he liked and, you know, sort of historic sees and dioceses, then sort of raising things up. That doesn't mean that the bishop in these, the cardinal in these far flung places is in lockstep with Francis, right? So I think it's more variegated.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
than one would think. That's the first thing. Secondly, someone said to me, because they are kind of from far-flung places, they don't know each other very well. And so that argues for kind of a more Vatican diplomat, say, for example, like Cardinal Parolin, who they might know from visiting the Vatican. But the third interesting thing, there's a couple of interesting things.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
A lot of them were at the synod. You know, there were a lot of cardinals at the Synod in that room, and a lot of people said to me when I was there, look around you, the future pope could be in this room. So I think they took their measure of one another in the Synod.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And then the final thing is, I think the political situation these days, people might look around and see kind of a rise in dictatorships and autocracies and might say, wow, we need someone who's going to be strong, sort of a strong voice against that. So I think all these things contribute to make it a really hard conclave to predict.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
But then if you scratch off the leading contenders, I don't know how well the other ones are known. That's the thing. And unlike that movie Conclave, they're not going to elect somebody who they met last week. Unless the Holy Spirit should intervene. Unless through a wind and they open exploded windows of the Sistine Chapel, which aren't giving away too much of the movie.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
So I ended up getting the email address for his secretaries, which were different people at different times. And I would send him more formal notes, you know, like typed out and whatnot in Spanish or Italian, thanks to Google Translate. And they would send me back scanned PDFs of his handwritten note, which they would have to
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
I would say, look, they need three things. They need someone who's holy. That's the first thing. They need someone who is a good evangelizer. That's the other thing. And then they need someone who's a good administrator. Those are three hard things to sort of find in one person. Yes. I think each of those names that I mentioned are all three of those things. We'll see. Who knows?
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Only the Holy Spirit.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
transcribe or transliterate because it was like this tiny little handwriting. And then I would ask to have someone here to translate it. So that's how we communicate. That's how it works in the universal church. Yes. Yeah.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Well, yeah. And I mean, as you know, like Jesus, who taught with words and deeds, right? I mean, Jesus taught with gestures as well, not just words and teaching. Francis was very good at that. I remember that, you know, Ross, as you were saying that, that to me is the image that I'll take with me to my grave, which is him embracing that man with the skin condition.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
You know, which called up Francis of Assisi embracing the man with leprosy, Jesus embracing people. You know, one of the great things was for me that it was natural. He wasn't doing it for show, right? Or I'm going to now do something that's going to impress people. This was who he was. He naturally reached out to people like that. But yeah, it made for good teaching moments, I would say.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And I agree. I think the visual is just as important as any encyclical that he did.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
That's a great question. You know, interestingly, I would say that while those issues were in the forefront of a lot of our minds, I think for Francis they were secondary, the kind of hot-button issues. I mean, basically what he was trying to do, you know, in most of his homilies and his encyclicals and his apostolic pilgrimages to different places would just proclaim the gospel.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
So most of his time he was just talking about Jesus, the resurrection, mercy, love. But I think it's a fair question. How far did he go? I think he went as far as he could, basically.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
One of the things I learned when I was at the Synod, I was a delegate at the Synod, which is this worldwide gathering of Catholics, and we met in Rome in October 23 and 2024, was realizing how much he wanted church unity. And so some issues, women deacons, LGBTQ people, you know, all sorts of things.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
You could see how much pushback there was from places like sub-Saharan Africa, Eastern Europe, and, you know, even in the United States. And he said a couple of times, unity is more important than these conflicts, right? So I think he tried to open the door to the discussion about some of these issues without breaking the church, right?
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
I think, you know, one of the fundamental differences, I think, between Pope Francis and a lot of his critics, particularly in the church and sometimes even in the hierarchy... Sometimes even in the pages of the New York Times. Sometimes.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Was that he really spent time listening to people talk about their spiritual lives and had a real reverence for the activity of the Holy Spirit in the individual person's conscience. And so he really took that seriously. So... when he talked about discernment and listening to people and even in the synod and LGBTQ issues and in Amoris Laetitia, his apostolic exhortation on the family.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
A lot of his critics said, oh, well, anything goes. It's just where we're going to listen to people. It's all about polls and opinions. But I think what they missed was that he really did trust the Holy Spirit active in the individual. So I think that, for me, encapsulates why people, I think, struggled with that. Because it is, you know, it's a challenge when you hear something like that.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
We need to meet people where they are. We need to listen to them. We need to see where the Holy Spirit is active. But To your point, he didn't want to move the church so far that he would break it.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
Yeah. I mean, you could say more broadly that concretely, you know, we were brought to a greater understanding of the importance of the human dignity of migrants and refugees, for example. I mean, there's no church teaching change in that. But to your point more specifically, for one thing, the catechism changed on the death penalty. It's now inadmissible. That's a small thing.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
For another, early in his papacy, he said he wanted more, I remember this line, incisive roles created. for women in leadership positions, and now you have a woman who's the head of a Vatican dicastery or office. The governor of Vatican City is a woman, right? So I think there have been real changes, maybe not to the catechism, but changes in church practice.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
For LGBTQ people, I think there's been significant changes. The ones that are perhaps the most kind of juridical would be the allowance of blessing of same-sex couples under certain circumstances, right? I mean, before that document came out, you couldn't do it. After the document came out, you could do it. So that's a change.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And then also something that's, I think, overlooked is his call for the decriminalization of homosexuality, right? Which I think in the West, people, you know, greeted with some shrugs, like, eh, big deal. But that's a big deal over in sub-Saharan Africa and Eastern Europe and Latin America, right?
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
So, yeah, I don't think he set out to change the catechism, but I think he changed the conversation. And in a sense, in addition to these kind of specific things, I think that's a kind of change in teaching, right? I mean, to change the conversation and to change the approach and the tone is a kind of change in teaching.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
So I think, yeah, he disappointed conservatives, certainly in different aspects, and liberals, I think, who think he didn't go far enough. Yeah. But again, I came away from the Senate understanding anew, or maybe for the first time, the importance of church unity and what a difficult job he had.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
I think the basis, as we would both agree, would be the creed, for example. I mean, you're not going to change any obvious dogma. You're not going to say suddenly that Jesus, guess what, Jesus didn't rise from the dead. You're not going to say that. Yeah.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
So we should start there because I think a lot of Catholics feel that, oh my gosh, Pope Francis was changing everything or anything goes, which is, you know, not accurate. I do think that that's a limit. I do think that church unity is a value, right? I mean, you know, Christ said that they all may be one. I think that's a value for us.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
So I think anything that goes against that needs to be looked at carefully. So it's a balance, Ross, I think, between, you know, what you might call prophecy and unity, right? I'll tell you a story. I would write to him fairly, not frequently, but a couple times a year. And I suggested that he do something. I forget what it was, to be honest, about LGBT stuff.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
And he said, yeah, that's a good idea. He said, but if I do that, I thought this was an interesting choice of words, I will provoke a chain reaction. And he's right. So while I thought that he could have gone further, he would have, right? He would have provoked a chain reaction. And he saw that as a negative thing. And I came around to agree with him.
Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
Can the Catholic Church Quit the Culture Wars?
You know, that's not worth breaking the church over some of these things. So I think his approach was to open the discussion, which again, that's a change.