Rob, Luisa, and the 80000 Hours team

So you're saying it's like an orthogonal issue that's not super related to, I guess, people in general use this shorthand because they maybe want to set aside this internal human conflict issue and say, well, like people need to think about that.

But that's like something that will, that's a problem always.

I mean, I'm not sure about this, but I suppose the gradual disempowerment framing places a lot of emphasis on like human versus AI control.

And I guess an alternative framing would just be disempowerment of my values relative to other humans who disagree.

I suppose maybe that's not a new idea.

You maybe wouldn't write a paper about that.

I see.

Is that more compatible with the competition between different values among humans?

Do you want to elaborate on that?

Okay, let's talk about political disempowerment now.

I could expand on that a bit.

Because how do you imagine that happening and kind of progressing over time?

Okay, let's take that bit by bit.

So the first part was you're imagining that progressively politicians are going to be acting almost entirely on the advice of AI advisors, AIs that they're operating.

I guess I don't think that you think that that per se represents like serious disempowerment.

In as much as I'm working with ChatGPT to help me do work that I want, but then I choose the answer, that seems kind of fine in principle.

But you think that's just the starting point, and then kind of progressively humans just are not really involved anymore?

I see.

Okay.

So imagine that you didn't live in a democracy now.