Robert Jones Jr.

And then the last book, I would say, is actually not a work of fiction.

It's a nonfiction collection of essays by Kiese Lehman called How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America, which talks about the difficulties of being a black person in a society that despises you

and yet finding a space for yourself to flourish.

And it's just beautiful, just beautifully written, heartbreaking, but also heart-mending.

Kate, it was my absolute pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

What's at the center of this novel is the love they share.

And if that is the case, then the love needs witnesses.

And out of that idea grew the other characters who I give their say in the narrative.

And so that all of these people are witnessing, whether they are inspired by Samuel and Isaiah's love, frightened by it, frightened for them because of it, or if they find it disgusting and they want to smash it.

Slavery is not the argument.

The humanity of these people.

characters is the argument.

Slavery is the backdrop.

So I'm returning to them their fullness as human beings, their agency, their complexity.

Yes, we know slavery is evil, but who are these people?

And how are they defined in a way that defies what we come to know as the caricature of the enslaved person?