Robinson Meyer

From New York Times Opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show.

From New York Times Opinion, this is the Ezra Klein Show.

Two years ago, Joe Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act, the biggest climate law in U.S. history. Its goal was to revitalize manufacturing jobs and make U.S. industry competitive with China. And by one measure, there's been nearly half a trillion dollars in investment in green energy and manufacturing since the law was passed.

Two years ago, Joe Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act, the biggest climate law in U.S. history. Its goal was to revitalize manufacturing jobs and make U.S. industry competitive with China. And by one measure, there's been nearly half a trillion dollars in investment in green energy and manufacturing since the law was passed.

But then Democrats lost the election, and the future of decarbonization is far more uncertain. So where does the clean energy industry go from here? Jigar Shah is one of the best people positioned to answer that question. He spent years working in the private sector, leading companies that invented new ways of financing green infrastructure.

But then Democrats lost the election, and the future of decarbonization is far more uncertain. So where does the clean energy industry go from here? Jigar Shah is one of the best people positioned to answer that question. He spent years working in the private sector, leading companies that invented new ways of financing green infrastructure.

And he's now the director of the Loan Programs Office at the Department of Energy. You're going to be hearing a lot about the Loan Programs Office, or LPO, in this episode. The LPO is supposed to help fund renewable energy projects that private sector lenders find too risky or meager to invest in.

And he's now the director of the Loan Programs Office at the Department of Energy. You're going to be hearing a lot about the Loan Programs Office, or LPO, in this episode. The LPO is supposed to help fund renewable energy projects that private sector lenders find too risky or meager to invest in.

Its experts are supposed to identify promising new clean tech and turn it into something that can scale up, something you can actually buy and use every day. And because of the Inflation Reduction Act, its lending authority grew from $40 billion a few years ago to over $400 billion today.

Its experts are supposed to identify promising new clean tech and turn it into something that can scale up, something you can actually buy and use every day. And because of the Inflation Reduction Act, its lending authority grew from $40 billion a few years ago to over $400 billion today.

Ezra has talked a lot on this show about what it takes for the government to help America build abundance, to build new power plants, new power lines, new housing. And I think the Biden administration got closest to that aspiration through the team Jigar Shah leads. So I wanted to talk to Jigar about what lessons he's learned from the Biden administration's economic experiment. What worked?

Ezra has talked a lot on this show about what it takes for the government to help America build abundance, to build new power plants, new power lines, new housing. And I think the Biden administration got closest to that aspiration through the team Jigar Shah leads. So I wanted to talk to Jigar about what lessons he's learned from the Biden administration's economic experiment. What worked?

What are the trade-offs the LPO made? How does Jigar think about turning policy into products? And since this experiment is not over, where does clean energy go in a second Trump era? As always, you can email the show at EzraKleinShow at NYTimes.com. Jigar Shah, welcome to the show. Oh my goodness. It's so great to be here. So I want to start here.

What are the trade-offs the LPO made? How does Jigar think about turning policy into products? And since this experiment is not over, where does clean energy go in a second Trump era? As always, you can email the show at EzraKleinShow at NYTimes.com. Jigar Shah, welcome to the show. Oh my goodness. It's so great to be here. So I want to start here.

Before we get into policy, Donald Trump has won the election. How screwed is the clean energy industry?

Before we get into policy, Donald Trump has won the election. How screwed is the clean energy industry?

I think that gets at one of these core tensions in the Biden administration policy. So when people hear about what the Biden administration has tried to do around clean energy deployment, clean technology deployment, there's an assumption that it's part of their climate and environmental goals, which it is. But you often, as you just did, frame things differently.

I think that gets at one of these core tensions in the Biden administration policy. So when people hear about what the Biden administration has tried to do around clean energy deployment, clean technology deployment, there's an assumption that it's part of their climate and environmental goals, which it is. But you often, as you just did, frame things differently.

So what do you see as the main drivers of decarbonization or of clean energy deployment?

So what do you see as the main drivers of decarbonization or of clean energy deployment?