Ronald Young Jr.

3.

I am at a place where I think I'm a pretty smart person. I think I understand things. I understand stocks. I listen to Planet Money. You know what I mean? I'm an NPR guy. I read. I understand numbers. The one thing that I will never understand is the United States national debt.

Es ist etwas, was die Abgeordneten anbieten, was der Präsident anbietet, was die Senatoren anbieten, was jeder immer über eine Art oder andere Art spricht. Wir müssen diesen verdauungslosen Wachstum reduzieren, die nationalen Steuern reduzieren. Wir müssen es reduzieren, weil es für die Wirtschaft schlecht ist. Es wird explodieren. All das. Und ich höre das.

Und wenn ich darüber denke, Steuern zu haben, Ich bezahle Renten, ich hatte Studentenlohne, ich habe Kreditkartenrechte, all das. Es gibt jemanden, dem ich Geld bezahle. Ja. Weißt du, was ich meine?

Du machst eine Kreditkarte aus, jemand kommt und sagt, hey, du zahlst Interesse und auch, wenn du das nicht bezahlst, werden wir dich in den Gericht nehmen, und dann kannst du deine Waren verspüren, und so weiter und so fort. Aber wenn ich über die nationalen Rechte denke, Und ist deine Frage auch so wie...

That's exactly it.

Ja.

Bridget's story is my worst nightmare. Being marched off a full plane, then back on with everyone's eyes on you. People likely blaming you for the flight being delayed. She said it herself. It was humiliating. And I can relate to her tendency to blame herself. I assume that most things are my fault because I'm fat, even more so when it comes to flying.

And these humiliating stories aren't uncommon. I've heard many horror stories about being fat and flying, even though it's risky to tell them because sharing these stories opens fat folks to further humiliation. It feels like everyone agrees with the voice inside Bridget's head and inside my head. Well, it is your fault because you are fat.

But I don't think that fat folks should be the scapegoat for a problem that we didn't create. So who is to blame? That's after the break.

Chuck, chuck, chuck, rolling on my end.

That is the sound of my phone going through an x-ray machine and of me gathering my stuff, putting it back into the bags and in my pockets and restacking the bins. Then I could put my shoes back on.

If I can take a flight without a major incident, like what happened to Brigid, then it's a success. But I spend a lot of time avoiding minor incidents when I take plane trips. Minor incidents like being groped on my chest and crotched by TSA because I have man boobs and my stomach hangs low, and the x-ray machine reads my body as me hiding prohibited items.

Minor incidents like the flight attendant making a grand show of getting me a seatbelt extender when I surreptitiously ask for one as I get on the plane. Minor incidents like bumping into someone as I try to walk down the narrow aisle to my seat. Minor incidents like seeing the concerned face of someone who realizes that they're sitting next to me.

So if I sound anxious in the tape you just heard, it's because I am anxious, and I just want to walk off the plane at my destination having not been humiliated. Everything I do at an airport and on the flight is to draw the least amount of attention to me as possible so that I don't get marched off the plane. I have to shrink myself.

Recently, I read a book that I felt characterized my experience flying very accurately. It's called What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat. And the name of the chapter was Into Thin Air. Here's a passage.

I've followed Aubrey's work for many years and was very excited to talk with her about air travel as she's talked and written about it extensively. We talked quite a bit about what she does when she flies in order to shrink herself.

Aubrey's doing the same thing I'm doing, attempting to avoid a crab walk to the front of the plane, doing whatever we can do to make sure our neighbor is comfortable and doesn't complain. Because if they get the flight crew involved, trouble could arise.

That is a terrible feeling that nobody should have to experience. But I feel like it's important to state that even without incident, flying is generally a terrible experience. I remember during a recent trip, I was sitting in my seat, and as I watched the rest of my traveling companions trudge past me to their seats, I realized that no one seemed to be having a good time.

It could be the first leg of a trip that ends in a vacation. They could be headed to see their loved ones or family or to collect a million dollars. No matter the destination, most people had expressions of some level of irritation.

That is Hannah Sampson. She's a staff writer for The Washington Post.

Hannah has written a lot over the years about airlines making changes in their services and amenities, and I wanted her to tell me the general state of air travel and what flying was currently like for most travelers.

If you've flown recently, this isn't exactly breaking news. But what bothers me is that the conversations I've heard about flying have often included straight-sized people complaining about sitting next to a fat person as an additional frustration of flying, as if we're just another thing contributing to cramped spaces and planes instead of people who are sharing this experience with you.

Aubrey Gordon again.

But that's often not a question that comes up because like Bridget said earlier, it feels like it's our fault, or at least we're made to feel like it's our fault as fat folks.

This is your host speaking. This has been my thinking recently. Why is anyone on a plane mad at other passengers? Unless someone is being inconsiderate invading your space, like, say, putting their feet on your shoulders or drooling on you while they sleep, when we're flying, there's going to be a lot of incidental encroaching on each other's spaces. It's just going to happen.

But we're all in this together. There's no reason to be mad at someone that's in the same situation that you are. Even if a baby is crying or someone is snoring, you could put on headphones.

But it seems that we're expecting that the tacit agreement is that if you're going to fly, you better conform to the space that you're allowed rather than allowing for discussion about why that space seems to be shrinking. And one of the reasons for the squeeze is that airlines have been constantly changing how they offer services.

These changes, Hannah says, stem from the introduction of budget airlines like Spirit and Frontier.

I remember when the idea of basic economy was introduced. This bottom rung level of travel that I think is beautifully characterized by Hannah saying, be glad we saved the space for you. Airlines essentially took the parts of travel that we assumed would come naturally as a part of the ride and have begun charging for each portion of it. Everything was becoming a la carte.

And the reason this is happening feels pretty obvious. But I asked Hannah for her take anyway. There has been no balance when it comes to revenue versus passenger comfort. Why do you think that they are on the side of revenue versus passenger comfort?

Cool? Yeah, that's good. That's good. Are you concerned about saying fat? Yeah, I feel like, am I allowed to say fat?

This is flying right now, capitalism at its finest, essentially charging to the point that for some folks, flying isn't even an option for them financially. And for those who can afford to fly, you can expect to have a more cramped trip regardless of where you're going, unless you cough up more money. And this is frustrating for everyone. Here's Aubrey reading from her book again.

I can't tell you how many times I've been slammed by the beverage cart because I was leaning into the aisle to get away from my seat neighbor. Or explain to you the anxiety of having to walk down the aisle to a bathroom that I can barely fit inside of. And even in these times, I wasn't mad at the airline. I was mad at myself.

Whenever I think about losing weight or imagine myself thinner, one of the first experiences I think about is comfortably sitting in an airplane seat. But that target is moving because the seats keep shrinking. After the break, we talk about why.

I love, let me tell you, it's funny because like this is the toughest conversation for me to have because the truth is we are trying to make fat just a flat descriptor, but so much damage has been done using the word fat as an insult that it's tough to hear straight size people say it.

So in my conversation with Aubrey about airlines, she mentioned something specific about the seat sizes shrinking.

And it's tough for straight size people to say it without adding some sort of like disclaimer or apology in the beginning of the end of it. But it is okay to say fat. It is. But the way you said it is also fine. I just wanted you to know that's okay. And it's tough to start getting out there and saying it because it means you have to purge it from your language as an insult.

Right. It's true. The shrinking seat sizes have been so alarming that Congress and the FAA have been called on to intervene.

That's Andrea Sachs, another reporter with The Washington Post. She's been covering travel for 24 years. She's written quite a bit about the intersections of disability and air travel, as well as the experiences of plus-sized folks flying. Andrea filled me in with what happened with Congress.

And to Aubrey's original point, 17 inches wide is actually more generous than what's reported. In some cases and configurations, economy class seats can be as small as 16 inches wide. And keep in mind, this puts you right up next to your seatmate who is also struggling in their 16 inch seat, only 28 inches in some cases from the person in front of them.

So where it stands now is that Congress is putting pressure on the FAA to come up with a minimum seat size that would be considered safe for everyone. This would be the start to solving the cramped travel on a plane and would be helpful to plus-size travelers who are already doing everything they can to not encroach on their neighbors.

And while I think it's a little troubling that the government has to intervene to fix this, we already know that given the opportunity, we can't count on the airlines to do right by its passengers. For instance, let's take a return trip with Bridget home from vacation.

Bridget has flown on Southwest Airlines over 50 times and had never used their customer of size policy. But after her incident with the flight attendant, she didn't want to take any chances. Here's Andrea Sachs again with the policy details.

You also get priority boarding, which is a nice perk when you want to have maximum control of where you're sitting. You do have to pay for the second seat. You receive the refund after you travel, or you have to risk asking at the gate before boarding and have to hope there's room to do it. Bridget paid the extra money and did it online.

But when she got to the airport, she ran into some trouble once again when talking to the ticketing agent.

The gate agent was able to get Bridget one seat on the plane, just one, which put Bridget back in the position she was in during her original trip, at risk of having someone humiliate her while traveling. Bridget wasn't going to put up with this again.

Bridget successfully got on the plane with priority boarding and got the reserved seat next to her, and by all accounts had an uneventful trip home, which is exactly what should have happened the first time.

But I really hate this experience for Bridget and this story really bothers me because Southwest, at least anecdotally, is supposed to be the best airline for fat folks and they're not even getting it right.

Bridget tried to follow the rules and was met with several layers of obstacles and was required to advocate for herself in a way that most fat folks don't necessarily have the energy for when they're just trying to get to their destinations. That's not to say that the open seating and customer of size policies and priority boarding aren't great. They are.

And there are plenty of fat folks who have benefited from these policies and flown comfortably. But Bridget didn't, and others won't, I'm sure. And also, this is a policy of one airline. An airline that, like Hannah Sampson said, is subject to the whims of shareholders and has to make money.

Which means we're depending on them to do right by their passengers, and we have to hope that the right and comfortable policy aligns with the most lucrative one. So unless Congress puts pressure on the FAA to make the airlines do something, there's no guarantee that policies that may benefit fat folks and honestly all folks, like open seating, won't go away. Because open seating is going away.

For plus-size passengers, this means the one airline that was doing the most for fat folks is now going to be just like every other airline. And I just want to get to my final destination with no incidents, major or minor. I'm concerned that eventually I'm going to be marched off the plane. I'm going to be forced to buy a second seat.

I'm going to get my picture taken and go viral for being the fat man on the plane who dared to fly. And I think despite knowing for a fact that it won't be my fault, I'll still bear the blame because I'm fat. My options are to lose weight and don't travel by plane until I do, or wait for an act of Congress.

So, like, if you could wave a wand and fix air travel for fat folks, what would you change specifically?

You know, it's funny, like in my mind, when I started making it, I had a few things that I knew I specifically wanted to talk about. And I didn't think about anything outside of those couple of things. And in the first season, I knew I wanted to talk about going to the doctor. I knew I wanted to talk about my relationship with my college, we'll say sweetheart.

I don't know if we'll ever see the day where they're designing planes in that way. But until they do, please remember, even fat folks have places to be. And we just want to get there in peace.

I do. So, my friend, Nicole Hill, Brilliant audio producer has a new show that I'm very excited about and I really enjoy. It's called Our Ancestors Were Messy. It's out in February.

Yes, it is so good. It is essentially her diving into the Black newspapers of yesteryear and kind of, instead of telling stories about like segregation and racism, just talking about stories about Black people living and how that looks in the newspapers. Because these are Black newspapers and they were talking about Black people living but there was a lot of gossip that was happening.

So she's telling these true stories of Black gossip from yesteryear from these very classic newspapers that we don't hear about. She did a lot of research and digging, and the stories are so much fun. They're so much fun. They're hilarious. She's a great host, and it's sound designed well. It's almost like if you want to listen to a normal gossip podcast,

But just that it's set in a specific time, way back in the day, it's like, ugh, just great listening. Our Ancestors Were Messy from Nicole Hill.

Yeah, almost like normal gossip and drunk history, minus the drinking, or like light drinking, I think.

And then I knew I wanted to talk generally about how I felt about influencers. I knew I wanted to talk about those things. But what I found is that as I started making the show, the more questions I was asking and answering, the more stories and answers were coming to my brain, which created more stories and more opportunities to talk about it.

So I found that while making the show, I, like you, was having the same experience where I'm just like, there's still more things to talk about. And I just keep pushing that direction and more stories keep coming up.

Listen, man, I thought you would share a little bit with me. I thought I'd just get in there a little bit. There's plenty of room for all of us on the airplane, I thought. How did you decide you wanted to talk about airplanes? You know, I mean, I've flown more over the years. Like the last five years has probably been the majority of the flying I've done in my life. Okay.

So it's all encompassed in the last five years. And also in the last five years is the biggest I've been in my life. So interacting with planes has been a little bit different. And I don't even have the experience that some people who are even bigger than me have by getting on a plane. But I do know that there is a very specific experience that you have when you are big and going to fly.

Everything from the anxiety of thinking about going through security to the anxiety of getting to your seat seeing who you're sitting next to and wondering if the seatbelt's going to fit. And I felt like these were questions that I was hearing within fat community from other folks.

And it felt like it was just important to tackle because flying sucks for everyone, yet the scapegoat always seems to be fat people. So I really wanted to unpack that.

This is Brigid McDonald. She's talking about a flight she took to South Carolina in the summer of 2023.

She flew Southwest, which was her go-to airline. Southwest has what's called an open seating policy, which allows folks to pick the seat they want when they get on the plane. Bridget had chosen a seat that she liked.

As the plane began to fill up, the flight attendants announced that people would need to move their bags from the middle seat. Bridget could no longer feign a search inside her purse.

It looked like Bridget had succeeded. No one else was boarding, and she had an empty middle seat between her and her neighbor on the aisle.

Bridget is describing one of the best feelings ever, and I am not exaggerating. One day I was headed out on vacation with friends who sat in a different row in between strangers, and somehow I got a seat in the empty row. My friend Travis looked at me and said, you just won the lottery. For me, it was even better than flying first class because I didn't have to pay more for the experience.

But also, as a fat person, having an empty seat next to you on a flight means more than just comfort. It means less anxiety and less physical stress on your body.

This experience of rigor mortising your muscles is very familiar for me. It's something I've done on many flights. Unlike Bridget, I prefer an aisle seat with a movable armrest because I'm not just fat, I have broad shoulders. So even if my stomach were smaller, I'd still be touching my neighbor.

Sitting in the aisle allows me to lean slightly into the aisle and away from the person I'm sitting next to. But Bridget didn't have to worry about any of these contortions. She was settling in for what should have been an easy flight.

Now mind you, Bridget was sitting at a window seat two rows away from the bathroom at the back of the plane. Her getting off would require her seatmate getting up to let her out, then a long walk from the back of the plane to the front of the plane with everyone looking, wondering, and judging. as she walked by.

Bridget followed the gate agent to the desk where they were joined by another gate agent, a man.

Bridget had already been on the plane, already settled in her seat, but then removed from the plane and humiliated because she was fat. Nobody would have blamed her if she decided not to get back on. But she did. The gate attendant officially reserved the seat next to Bridget as per the Southwest customer of size policy and then walked her back down the jet bridge and onto the plane.

Deadheading is the term used when a flight attendant or pilot travels as a passenger on a flight to another location to work on a subsequent flight.

We don't know exactly why the flight attendant wanted Bridget to reserve the seat next to her as per the customer of size policy, but based on this interaction with the gate agent, my speculation is that the flight attendant who was deadheading didn't want to sit next to Bridget. But since that was the only available cabin seat on the flight, that's where they would have to sit.

But if that seat were taken, then they would be able to sit in one of the available jump seats away from the main cabin. We don't know this for sure because Southwest never responded to Bridget's complaint that she would file later. Nevertheless, the gate agent wanted to confirm that after all this trouble, nobody would be sitting next to Bridget.

Bridget made it to her destination safely without further incident. And until I asked her to tell me the story for Wait For It, hadn't planned on talking about it again. I asked her why, and this was her response.

Hi, I'm Ronald Young Jr., and I'm here to introduce myself to all of you who love listening to podcasts in the UK. Welcome to my world on the other side of the pond. I'm the host of Pop Culture Debate Club, the show that debates the important issues of our time. Is West Wing better than Veep? Does an iPhone beat an Android?

Such questions we battle over on Pop Culture Debate Club with comedians and pop culture commentators. We'd love to welcome you all too. It's a competition, but a really fun one. You can find us on BBC Sounds and any other podcast provider. You'd be so welcome to join us.