Ross Douthat

What kind of immigration enforcement is legitimate in your view?

I think it's actually, just to pause there, because I think it's a good case study in how, in some of this stuff, you can find video online of the beginning of that arrest,

And it's actually a case study in one of the guys, the U.S.

citizens, is filming an ICE agent as they enter Target.

I'm not sure for exactly what purpose.

And then they have a kind of altercation in the doorway that people have been arguing about online, like who started the altercation, right?

And then both of the men are arrested.

They're not arrested as far as I can tell,

for not being U.S.

citizens, they're arrested for the altercation and then released.

But so it's just an example of, like, again, it's a kind of Rorschach test of whether you think the person observing the agent went too far or whether you think the agent went too far.

Maybe they both went too far.

But I just wanted to stipulate that.

I guess I'm interested in...

Yes.

And I say this as someone who I think has a pretty strong understanding of why voters became especially concerned about immigration under the Biden presidency, where you had an unprecedented level of what?

I would call illegal and you would call undocumented immigration into the United States.

But then I too recoil from some of the ICE behavior that I see in the videos.

I think walking around with masks in an American city, the way they're doing is un-American in some way.

And I'm just trying to figure out if there's