Ross Douthat

It still is the case that...

The kind of intel would be intelligentsia, right, is slightly more secular and that religious practice is more common middle to upper middle class.

So I'm going to give you anecdotes in response.

Right.

Yeah.

One of the aspects of this kind of vibes based conversation about revival in America is about.

people with PhDs, the intelligentsia, because in that zone, you just have a lot of stories right now.

I go to college campuses and people running the local Catholic parish or student group will say, we had X number of converts among the undergrads and grad students this year.

And I did not hear those stories 10 or 15 years ago.

Do you think that there's any scenario where

the American elite is actually getting more religious in a concrete way.

I mean, this connects to what you were saying.

For a lot of people, it seems like...

disaffiliating from religion is just a way of sort of being disconnected from institutions.

And then as religion either remains resilient or becomes more potent in the upper middle class, it becomes sort of, in a way, pardon my language, a sign of like having your shit together.

Right.

Absolutely.

Like that's what I always tell people.

This is a very sort of economistic, secular ish frame for understanding religion.

So my last