Ross Douthat

And this is something you've experienced directly.

You were a mainline Protestant pastor at the First Baptist Church of Mount Vernon, Illinois.

Just talk for a minute about that experience and what happened to that church.

God bless the Baptist.

American Baptist.

American Baptist, but it's not the Southern Baptist Convention.

Well, I mean, I didn't want to say that.

You don't want to say the obvious, right?

So why did this hit the main line in particular so hard?

Why such a decline so fast for this big and pretty diverse group of churches, right?

There are big differences between, or were, between Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and American Baptists, and yet all of them have experienced this kind of decline.

So often you'll hear a narrative that says churches decline because they become too politicized.

And I've made versions of that argument myself.

I've argued that you could see it applying to both left and right.

Seems to me, though, like you're saying that in certain ways, political tribalization can be a source of strength.

Right.

I mean, so which which is it?

Is it does polarization bad for Christianity or churches succeeding by leaning into it?

Why does politicization and polarization seem to help conservative churches more than liberal churches?

The Catholic Church, for various reasons, has, I think, worked harder to try to present itself as above politics.