Ross Douthat

Right.

And I think you can tell a story where 1950s American Christianity, in some ways, a peak of Christian practice is also sort of the least supernaturalist style of Christianity.

Right.

The most intellectualized, very intellectualized, very, you know, very sort of suburban American way, modern 20th century progress and so on.

And the equivalent, even if it is also suburban today.

is much more like, you know, we baptized someone and he was blind and he got his sight back.

Like this is a video I was literally watching this morning because someone linked to it, right?

From, I think from a mega church, right?

So that's just a bigger part of Christianity now and going forward.

Well, that's our goal, right?

That's that's the Catholic goal.

But I think the pattern with Catholicism has been weirdly or not weirdly.

Catholicism is now getting lots of not just intellectual converts, but sort of.

would-be elites who in the old days would have become Episcopalian or Presbyterian now become, if they want to be religious, they're more likely to become Catholic, even as Catholicism, which was once like the big mass immigrant working class religion, it's losing ground in that territory.

So there's an odd religious dynamic of like,

Catholic elites and evangelical non-denominational churches that are underrepresented in elite society.

Exactly.

You're so cynical about our political leaders, Ryan.

What about race, ethnicity, and immigration?

Do you get a lot of movement from Hispanic Catholicism into Pentecostalism?