Roxane Gay

Well, there are unfortunately multiple definitions for civility, but when it's used in sociopolitical discourse, most often it means don't get too excited.

Don't get too angry.

Don't be too hurt.

This is all an intellectual exercise.

Don't step out of line.

Don't do what they say.

you know, what your opposition perceives as harm.

And that harm really is oftentimes about their egos.

And, you know, don't make me feel complicit in whatever is happening in our world.

Don't make me feel

like, I've done something wrong, don't make me feel ashamed, as if we have any control over that, which we don't.

And it's really unfortunate because it compromises honest and productive conversations, and it's always used as a weapon.

Look at this lack of civility.

And when you look at the current state of the world, which is such an inadequate phrase,

You can see that what is uncivil is ICE terrorizing an apartment building in Chicago in the middle of the night and taking people from their beds.

Like, that's uncivil.

And so talking about it is not uncivil.

And I think it's really important for any of us with sanity left to be very clear about that distinction.

For the most part, yes, because most of the people who call for civility happen to be, I don't know if it's coincidence or not, heterosexual, middle or upper middle class, well-educated white men.

And they oftentimes have some kind of power, whether it's platform or political power, elected office, etc.

And so for them, it really does offend their delicate sensibilities when you push them out of their comfort zone and force them to confront their inadequacies.

They cannot tolerate it.

And it's so interesting that the right came up with the phrase, not the phrase, the word snowflakes to represent people who dare to challenge the status quo.

There is no bigger set of snowflakes than Republicans in power.

And it's really quite interesting to see.

They really are the ones who are craving safe space.

Because when you call for civility in that manner, you are saying, I don't feel safe.

And I need you to take it upon yourself to do whatever you have to do to make me feel safe.

And it's such a level of privilege.

It is such a level of privilege.

Those are people who are telling us a lot more about themselves than anyone else because they feel that accountability is violence.

They feel that truth is violence.

And I noticed even in a few of the comments, which were largely very interesting and thoughtful, where some people saying, I can't believe you're calling for violence.

And I am not calling for violence.

But what I am saying is that you cannot expect people who are dealing with oppression to simply kneel and bow their heads and smile as you oppress them.

And when you are facing...

significant oppression, sometimes violence is the only language that violent people understand.

And, you know, again, to bring it back to ICE, which is just such a constant presence right now,

That's the only language these people understand.

They throw women and reporters and children and families and men.

They throw anyone.

They just throw them around as if they're ragdolls.

So don't talk to me about violence.

I think violence is abhorrent.

I think it should be a tool of last resort.

But...

You know, saying that we don't have to be civil is not saying we are going to be violent.

It is saying that we are not going to go quietly and we are not going to do nothing in the face of really just pernicious overreach.

No, not at all.

I think that it's going to take multiple strategies.

And many people have said that we could not have Martin Luther King without Malcolm X and we could not have Malcolm X without Martin Luther King.

We need multiple approaches.

And throughout the civil rights movement, there have been significant proponents of nonviolence.

And they have a point.

And for many people, nonviolence does feel like the right way, because it isn't passivity.

It is an active choice to be nonviolent in the face of violence.

It really isn't.

Quite frankly, I admire it.

I don't necessarily have that capacity.

But I admire the people who do.

And I also know that there have been many people during the Civil Rights Movement who decided that, you know what, we are going to fight fire with fire.

And Black gun owners in the South, in particular, were big advocates of not just going quietly when lynch mobs tried to come to their homes and

kidnap them and do grievous harm to them, they decided, no, you know what, we're going to use our guns because we have them too.

And in a perfect world, we would never have to go there.

But the right to defend oneself

That is a right, and I think that more people should avail themselves of that right when they need to.

And I'm not talking about just going out and buying a gun, but I am saying we do get to fight back.

We shouldn't have to just bow our heads and suck it up.

But I very much admire what nonviolent activists were doing.

And in that piece I wrote, because I had recently been to the Civil Rights History Museum, and it was just so...

powerful.

I had, you know, it's just a really great museum and really well curated and very

educational, and I mean that in the best possible way.

And so ever since then, I've just been thinking so much about what a significant effort it was during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and quite honestly, up to till today, that what a great movement and how powerful it has been to see so many different approaches all arcing toward the same goal.

And we need multiple approaches.

It's not going to be just any one strategy that's going to overcome the rise of the second or the third or the fifth rise of fascism in this country and honestly in other places as well.

So we just have to be able to have that conversation and say, you know, it's going to take a lot of different strategies and a lot of different minds.

I thought that it was all very performative on the parts of politicians.

And I don't think they care one way or the other about Charlie Kirk or what happened.

I think they understood that they had to perform contrition just in case.

They were hedging their bets.

And it's so cynical and frankly pathetic.

But, you know, I'm against the death penalty.

The punishment for having odious beliefs is not death.

And so what happened there was a travesty.

But it would be a travesty for anyone to be killed.

Anytime someone loses their life, especially in some misguided attempt to do whatever that killer was trying to do, we have to resist it.

I just don't believe politicians when they're offering that resistance, because it seems so disingenuous.

And the speed with which they came out with those statements, my God.

But it is what it is.

I accept it for what it is.

But I...

I'm not going to mourn someone who wouldn't spit to put me out if I was on fire.

But I think it's criminal what happened to him.

And I also feel like the discourse has gotten so far afield from sanity

Murder is bad.

And just... Full stop.

It's just murder is bad.

And the fact that we don't even have that common ground as just a people anymore breaks my heart.

But murder is not only bad when someone is on stage and is killed by an assassin.

Murder is bad when police...

you know, kill an unarmed Black person or an unarmed person of any race.

It's bad when a husband murders his wife because divorce is just too much effort or because he believes he has a right to do so.

It's just always bad.

And I prefer to talk about that than to be so specific and say, oh, but what about in this instance?

No, I'm actually just against it all the time.

I don't know that they do.

I don't think that they care.

One of the many things the Trump administration has shown us over the past, well, it's more than a decade now, off and on, is that they simply shape reality as they go along.

And they shape their ideologies to fit whatever they're trying to accomplish.

It's all very malleable.

It's all very fluid.

And that's really what's so scary.

They don't bother themselves with reality.

They don't trouble themselves with fact.

They simply...

make the world as they want it to be, and they expect the rest of us to go along with it.

And then when we point out that there is a grave inconsistency, we're the problem.

We're un-American or we're uncivil.

And I firmly believe that's the most confounding

issue that we're facing because, you know, Trump, for example, is trying to frame this current government shutdown as a Democrat problem when he has the executive branch, the judicial branch, and the legislative branch.

There is no check.

There is no balance.

It's all Trump all the time.

So what do you mean that you are going to lay responsibility at the feet of Democrats?

And then what is going on with the Democrats that they are not in front of every single camera they can find and every single microphone they can find putting the blame for what's happening directly at their feet.

The Democrats are being so weak and they'll say, oh, we're not in power.

You're in office, so you have some kind of power.

I don't think you're overthinking it at all.

I think it's an impossible situation.

And

If the Democrats would own it, I would probably reconsider how I'm feeling about the way in which they're proceeding.

If they would say, yes, we did what had to be done because we are willing to lead.

But they don't even seem to have that capacity to own it.

They are always hedging and hawing.

They're always sort of working from a place of listening to advisors and pundits and polls instead of listening to their instincts and forgetting about whatever three-dimensional chess game they think they're playing and just contending with what is actually happening.

So I would be very open to seeing them try anything.

anything, because I don't purport to have all the answers.

It's very easy to sit from my office and say they're being weak, which they are, but I also don't know how we proceed given the extent of what we are dealing with right now.

But I do know that something different has to happen.

I mean, we just, something has to happen.

It's not even about something different.

They're not doing anything.

And you know, like people always go, you know, like you said, it's always like people go to violence, but it's like, no, just resist.

And then stop always being on the defense.

Go on the offense.

There are,

So many things that democratic politicians could and should be talking about that can be laid directly at the feet of Donald Trump and his administration.

You don't even have to look for it because they're literally coming and they're dropping it at your hand, your feet rather.

So just talk about it.

Do something.

And, you know, the fact that, yes, and the bar is in hell.

Like, oh, yes, they didn't capitulate to stochastic terrorism.

Congratulations, Hakeem and Chuck.

Good work.

I mean, that we have to recognize that because that's all there is.

I mean, I am so...

I'm frustrated with it.

You sound bereft.

I am bereft.

I am bereft because right now the Trump administration is like a drunk terrorist in a candy store with a sugar addiction.

They are doing everything they've ever wanted.

And of course, we were all given the blueprint for what they were going to do.

And the Democrats haven't even bothered to write a response or to articulate their own policy platform in that really big public way, which again, why are we not writing a Project 2027?

And so, yeah, I'm just bereft because where does this end?

We are so very far away.

But you make an important point, which is to say that activism is happening.

And almost every single community, on the ground, grassroots, local organizers, are truly doing God's work right now.

I am so grateful that that work is happening, that that organizing is happening.

Like right now in LA, in Chicago, in DC, Boston, we're seeing some amazing resistance to really terrifying encroachments on people's freedom.

And what's weird is that many people don't know about it.

And so part of the problem is that it's the media's job to connect what's happening on the ground with the institutions.

And they're not doing it.

And we all know why, I guess, but it's sad.

And so I think until more people lose a loved one or a friend or are mistakenly detained or find themselves in...

such financial precarity that they have only one choice left, which is to resist.

Until we all sort of start to feel that boot on our neck, I just don't know that there's going to be anything that's going to make us sort of, and I include myself in that.

you know, that are going to make us sort of do something, even though I don't even know where to start, other than to look to, as Mr. Rogers said, the helpers.

But one of the people I follow closely in terms of activism and where to expend our energy is Mariam Kaba, who is an abolitionist among many other things.

And one of the things that she talks about quite a lot is just picking one or two things because you cannot do it all.

And so that's the approach I've been trying to take.

I have chosen, I am more than happy to go to a protest.

I think that it's useful.

I'm actually very shy and quiet.

So for me, that where I can just sort of blend in and be there is,

um is good but i also am more than happy to write a check i and i'll do whatever is asked of me but what what do i have that i can contribute and what a lot of organizers need is money to do that work um lawyers to get them out of jail um

So I am trying to show up when and where I can, and it seems to be useful.

I was at a protest about four or five weeks ago, and someone said, oh, it's so good to see you here.

And I just thought, oh, really?

I'm just standing here, but okay.

So sometimes those things do matter, and I do try to do work with mutual aid in L.A.

when I can, where I live, have time.

And because that's just the community I'm more connected to and that I know more closely.

And I'm always writing.

It's a small tool, but it is one.

I don't think he needs an excuse, honestly.

Yeah.

I don't think he cares.

But...

Do I think that they are trying to bait people with all of the pomp and circumstance?

Of course they are.

But both that can be true and that we have to show up can also be true.

Because while all of the sort of showmanship is happening, like the thing that they did in Chicago,

It's showmanship.

They videotaped the whole thing and then released a sizzle reel online this morning.

And so, yeah, they're clearly doing it for show.

But while they're doing it for show, they are taking real people out of their homes.

They are splitting up real families.

The evil work is happening alongside the show.

And to just not respond...

would not be OK.

And fortunately, organizers are brilliant for the most part.

And in LA, one of the great things that they have done is that if you are staying in a hotel as an ICE person, you're not going to get a good night's sleep.

You are going to hear all kinds of stuff.

People gather in the parking lots.

They play music from their cars really loud.

They honk their horns.

They shine their lights into all of the hotel windows.

That's not violent.

But it's also not passive.

And so, yeah, sure, you can be a part of ICE and you can continue to terrorize this community and kidnap people, but you're not going to be well-rested.

And

I love that someone came up with that because it's so elegant and so simple.

And you know that when it happens, those men of ICE are, because it is a vocational program for men, they are probably so irritated.

And that brings me a small amount of, I don't think joy is the word, but satisfaction.

No.

It isn't.

They just have a new way of gathering.

The manosphere has always existed.

Congress...

It's everywhere.

And the army.

The White House.

Truly.

That's just off the top of my head.

It has always existed.

What is particularly troubling and unique about the current moment is that they have such easy access to one another and that there are no limits.

because they tend to find themselves on these forums where there is no moderation, where they are openly allowed to talk about really virulent misogyny, which whatever, but then also violence against women, violence against people they disagree with.

They have created their own vernacular to be able to better communicate amongst themselves about their anxieties and their grievances.

And so they have more reach than before.

And they are really good at finding the disaffected and disillusioned young men or not so young men who have nowhere to put feelings and who don't have the tools to cope with feelings and who don't have the personal ability to deal with accountability of

you know, take a shower, brush your teeth, learn to talk to other people, and then listen to what is being said to you, learn to ask questions.

You know, so much of this is just basic sort of human 101.

that they have decided they should be able to opt out of and still have the woman of their dreams and the career of their dreams.

Like that's not how any of this works.

You have to put effort in and it doesn't have to even be that much effort.

I see scrubs all the time who are doing just fine.

And so like, it just takes a little effort and it's, I, you know, I, I'm not, I have some empathy for,

disillusioned people and disillusioned men, because they were told that they were going to have the world as their oyster, and their fathers and their grandfathers did.

And then here's this generation that isn't getting everything they've ever wanted, even though, really, did anyone ever get it?

And if you've been told a certain thing your entire life and then it's not true,

Of course you're disillusioned, but I also don't think that that disillusionment is an excuse for hating women and for hating just people of color or queer people, etc.

They always target people who are more vulnerable than them so that they can feel some sense of toxic masculinity.

It's just a terrible brew.

But most men are not susceptible to that, fortunately.

They're fine.

And the hand-wringing that we do in the media all the time about like the male loneliness epidemic, I don't know, stop looking at a screen and go outside and talk to someone.

Yes and no.

Part of me just thinks they need to work this out amongst themselves because men listen to other men.

And so I think men need to take responsibility for their brethren.

I really, really do because they're actually not going to listen to women for the most part.

They're just not.

And so I think men need to hold other men accountable.

But how much more do we need to do as a society to cater to men and make them feel whole?

I mean, we're living under a Trump presidency.

So much of what is happening is predicated on a lie that women are doing so well that it's gone too far.

And let's send them bitches back in the kitchen.

You know, it's crazy.

It is genuinely unbelievable.

not grounded in sanity and at the same time I have two brothers and they're amazing or well only one is surviving but oh no it's okay I thought you were gonna say only one was no no no they're both both amazing and they are awesome fathers reasonably good husbands and amazing brothers and

And so I know what men are capable of.

And for me, that's the standard.

Like, just exist.

You know, and they're guys' guys.

They, you know, they shoot guns.

They were both raising only daughters.

Oh, well, no, one has a son, but he's...

He's a very gentle giant.

They watch sports.

They do all of the things that are typically coded as masculine, but then they're also raising children and doing their share of domestic labor.

My parents, I credit them with modeling what relationships between people of different genders should look like.

And so we don't actually have to look that far to find great examples.

of men.

So what do we do about these people who have somehow not been able to actively participate in a healthy society?

I don't have the answer, but I just don't think that we need to do like some kind of like deeply special outreach because so much of our society is already dedicated to supporting men and making them feel better.

No, no, it's fine.

I don't know that feminism has changed.

We're still fighting the same fight we've always fought.

I think a lot of our work has become more urgent.

Right now, we're trying to figure out how do we stop losing ground?

How do we get more people on board with recognizing that women are people, that women matter?

When you look at all of the disparities that women continue to face,

It's like, how do we continue to remind people of this when we have an administration that's saying, oh, women have it great, no more need for feminism, when it's patently untrue?

I think our work is just incredibly urgent right now.

And what a lot of people don't understand is that our work as feminists is

is not only about bettering the lives of women and making sure that women have equity in society.

It's about bettering the lives of everyone, regardless of gender.

It is about making sure that we have a planet to live on, and that everyone deserves equal pay for equal work, that everyone should have bodily autonomy.

And that gets so deeply misunderstood and lost

That's why I am able to care about the very sad and disillusioned young men in the manosphere.

It's like, yeah, you want to see me dead.

You think I have no value because I'm over the age of 32 or whatever.

But I still see you as a human being.

And I'm not even a saint.

It's not about like, oh, I'm a good person.

No, these are table stakes for just being a person.

And-

Every day it's a battle.

It's a real struggle because a very big part of me is just like, fuck you, honestly, get it together.

If you cannot make that work, given this entire world and how racist and homophobic and misogynistic it is, if you cannot make that work, even a little bit, I just don't know that I can cry for you.

But at the same time, I know that if we don't address that, women don't get to live in peace.

Women are not safe.

And so even if it's self-interest, we have to care a little bit.

Otherwise, we are all in danger.

And I don't want anyone to be in danger.

And so it is a constant struggle.

I try to have empathy.

I really do.

And I mean, there are some people I just can't work it up.

Like, you know, Trump, people who are still like, yeah, that's my guy when they look at Trump right now.

Yeah, it's impossible.

Like, okay, congratulations, I guess.

But what am I empathizing with?

Why would I?

I'm not a saint.

There are so many people out there, and God bless them, who are like, yes, I have empathy for my fellow man, even as he points his weapon at me.

And we need those people.

I'm not one of them.

I'm just like...

I think that Erica Kirk was ready for this moment.

I think she was ready for the moment.

And she knew exactly what to say to...

further gild the path ahead of her.

I don't know if she really forgives.

I could not possibly.

If someone, God forbid, did something to my wife, there would be absolutely no forgiveness ever.

So maybe she is just that connected with Jesus, but I'm not.

So I just thought it was...

shocking, honestly.

I thought it was shocking.

I was like, he's not even at the funeral home yet.

Like, what?

No, I mean, I, I can see why someone would get there, why you could get there.

I, I don't have that ability or that gene.

Um,

I just, because I didn't believe it.

I did not believe it for a single second.

I don't believe someone who espouses the hatred that Kirk did is capable of forgiveness.

I don't even think they believe in forgiveness.

And so I just could not get there, but I hope that she has the space to mourn and to care for her young children and that they have the space to mourn.

You know, I think that those are the truly innocent people in all of this.

And, uh, I would never wish anyone harm, but I don't believe that she has forgiven the man that killed her husband.

But, you know, and I don't believe that her saying it quelled anything.

I think it was just, it was like, performance really is the only thing I can think of.

But I hope, you know, we'll see.

I think that, but, you know, like her actions speak very loudly.

The fact that she is now the CEO of Turning Point.

Like, oh, so we're going to pick up where we left off.

It's terrifying.

I mean, it has... I have been struggling with writer's block for years now, and this has not helped.

Because I have a family now, and...

It's not even about what could happen to me, which I don't relish the thought of anything happening to me.

It's that other people could be harmed because historically I've gotten death threats for about 10 or 11 years now.

I've

Had to have security at almost every public event that I do.

It's really disconcerting to have to be followed around by men who are armed just because I have a few opinions that quite honestly are not particularly radical.

It's terrifying and it makes me.

afraid to write, to really write.

Like, I have not written the things that I really want to write, because I just am not willing.

Like, my risk tolerance as I've gotten older, now that I'm married, like, I have a, you know, my parent, well, my dad, my brother, their kids, like, I just, my risk tolerance is much lower than it used to be when it was just kind of me.

And that's because people have called my parents' house.

They have sent insane emails and not just one, but like hundreds, sometimes in a single day.

And so on the one hand, it's like, oh, someone has a lot of free time.

But on the other hand, you don't know which one of those people is actually going to show up at your doorstep.

Or at your public event.

Like, I did an event two days ago, and I was just like... And I think about this every time I go on stage, but I was like, oh, gosh, I hope today's not the day.

And so... Wow, really?

Yeah, really.

And we had two bodyguards in the wings.

And it was...

Like, oh, thank God they're there, but what a shame that they're there.

And it just, you know, it's like, the price for doing this kind of work should not be, I'm afraid for my life and the lives of all the people who have joined me in these public spaces.

Like, that's just ridiculous.

And I think we should all agree on that.

And same with, like I said, with Charlie Kirk, like the price for having odious opinions is not death and it shouldn't be harassment.

But here we are.

Yes.

We are definitely under authoritarian rule.

My parents are from Port-au-Prince, Haiti.

They fled a dictatorship.

I grew up understanding what a dictatorship is and what authoritarianism is, like many children of immigrants.

And since January 6th, my dad has just been shaking his head in disbelief.

And over the past several months, for me, he's the canary in the coal mine.

And he is like, oh, wow, we are in a dictatorship.

And he is disgusted.

And understandably so.

So I think we're already there.

I do not know how much worse it's going to get.

I don't know when it's going to get better.

But I do know that very few dictatorships last very long.

And I do try to remember that.

That's a good question.

And we're finding out in real time.

It's a really dangerous, dangerous time because

And you say, like, are we there yet?

We're there for so many reasons.

And the dismantling of higher education, trying to get rid of the Department of Education, the way that they are trying to undermine scientific research, the way that they're trying to keep international students out of the country, all of this is part of a plan, which, again, we already know about because we have the PDF.

they released it and then they did it project 2025 imagine imagine it was it was pre it was what is it but with that you have to read required reading yes it was absolutely like we you know either you did your homework or you didn't but you know we're seeing the way they're trying to erode knowledge and

And we have to continually remind ourselves that science is real.

Facts matter.

And we have to do that work to make sure that we are as well informed as possible.

And I also believe we have to demand that there should be guardrails.

Like, the president is going to build a ballroom that is larger than the East Wing?

And there's no, like, congressional approval required?

I think a lot of us thought that the Constitution was stronger than it is turning out to be.

And it's interesting because Republicans oftentimes frame themselves as constitutionalists.

And now they're like, we thought it was a suggestion.

Originalist.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's.

Bad, which is not the most eloquent thing I can say, but it is the truest thing I can say.

But I also think we have to resist the idea that truth is fungible, that facts are fungible.

They're not.

No, there really aren't.

Yeah.

And that's what's so interesting about them.

They're actually not devious.

They're not slick.

They're very blunt tool.

Here it is.

Let me go to McDonald's.

They're just very plain about what they're going to do.

And I think that's actually my biggest issue with the Democrats.

And it's what I'm yearning to see from them.

Care less.

Make better choices about what you care about.

Just do it like.

It's not admirable, but it's fascinating to see the way that the Trump administration does not care about permission, public opinion.

They don't care.

Like this ridiculous, and I'm writing about it right now, that the compact that they want universities to sign basically is sort of like a 10 page bend the knee and let us reshape you.

It's completely wild.

Every single democratic norm that has existed has been shattered.

And they're like, we are just getting started.

And I don't think that's a way to lead at all.

I do not think that we should lower ourselves to what they're doing.

But I do think that...

with whatever they believe democratic politicians should care less about what people are going to say or what people are going to think and fight the good fight.

And I think we have some really great examples.

I think Mamdani in New York is incredibly interesting.

I'm always a little suspicious of anyone who wants to run for office, but he has genuinely fresh ideas.

Are they going to be realistic?

I don't know.

But

Who cares?

Like it's at least trying and his ideas are like, yes, let's make sure that people can eat.

Let's make sure that people have a roof over their head.

Why are we objecting to any of this?

It's great.

And so I would love to just see more politicians take some big swings at things that we all deserve and big swings.

They're popular.

These ideas are popular.

And even AOC, I think she's brilliant and interesting.

She's

plain spoken.

She doesn't pull punches, Jasmine Crockett.

Let's also look to the people who are doing really great stuff.

And there are, in fact, some Democratic leaders who are doing a lovely job, especially under these circumstances.

Kara Swisher is truly a woman with her finger on the pulse of all things tech.

She has written for countless publications, including the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, but now she hosts the podcast On with Kara Swisher, and she co-hosts Pivot with Scott Galloway.

With inimitable style, she covers breaking news, opines on technology companies and the mercurial people who lead them, and is always, always ahead of the curve.

Tonight, she joins Debbie Millman and I on this live episode of Design Matters.

Cara, welcome to Design Matters Live.

Oh, I always enjoy a third row for activities.

You've noted that when you survive something that awful, very little is going to bother you over the course of the rest of your life.

And it seems like that has held true this many years later.

And so why do you think that holds true for so long?

And do you ever foresee that changing where things might start to rock your world again?

I have to say, yes, please clap.

When I hear something like that, it feels a bit mythic because I am not, even though on the page, yes, I'm absolutely that bitch.

But in my day-to-day life, I don't have that thing that allows me to just say, I don't want to ever speak to you again.

Yeah.

How do you develop that?

Wow.

Now, this is taking a step back, but I know that your mother is very stylish.

And so was your Italian grandmother.

She was.

And at one point, your mom worked at the great old department store, Bonwit Teller.

She did.

I was there a lot.

Amazing.

And later had her own store and would coordinate fashion shows.

You've said that you are her greatest disappointment in that regard.

And I can relate because my mother is also very fashionable.

And every time she looks at my wardrobe, she's just like...

No.

So has your mother truly never appreciated your style?

I saw that.

Text correct.

And I agree.

I agree.

All of these old men who frankly don't know how to tailor a suit are talking about a dress code.

Leave him alone.

I think both Debbie and I are honored that you brought out the hard pants.

So my mom is, I love her.

We talk every day.

She's very special.

She's Haitian, and she's 74, and she just does not give a fuck about anything.

She will say whatever she wants to say.

And this is not like an elderly thing.

This is just who she is.

She's always been this person.

And I was like, yeah, I was telling her about some good news about one of a movie I wrote that's actually going to get made.

And she was like, oh, good.

Then maybe now people will learn your name again because it has been five years since I published a book.

I was just like, thank you for having the appropriate reaction.

I was just like, I was so stunned.

And the thing is, she comes up with us to my events all the time.

And so it's so funny.

And then my dad will be like, you know, Roxanne, I saw a bad feminist in the store.

And I would like to see something else next to it.

And I'm like, well, we have the same last name, so perhaps you should write something.

That's a handy skill.

Yes, that's true.

I'm sure they would have quite the time.

Yes, exactly.

Oh, well, I mean, I think she'll admit she came out at 50.

I remember the alternative definition of Santorum very fondly.

It's really unpleasant and it involves semen.

And speaking of grandparents, your grandmother was one of your favorite people.

My favorite person.

And you said that she was encouraging of your confidence.

You've said it delighted her when you were yourself.

How did that help you to stay confident, especially as a woman, as a gay woman growing up in a world where women are often told, as you well know, to make ourselves smaller?

Yeah.

And, you know, it's interesting to see how some people are able to just do that and then others stay in that place until they're ready or until they're shoved out.

Yeah.

Yes.

You have seen the AIDS crisis during college.

And I think for many of us, that was formative.

I went to school on the East Coast and we would go to New York on the weekends and act up.

was very active at the time.

And it was amazing to see that there was this way of fighting back and that there were people who are willing to tell those stories.

After college, you ended up going to Columbia School of Journalism to get your master's degree.

And you've said it was a waste of money.

And I think most of us who have graduate degrees could probably say yes, 100%.

Why did you think you needed a master's degree to get into journalism?

Did you learn anything useful in grad school?

I can't believe he's doing that joke this many years later.

Of course, you know me.

Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

You enjoy holding on to like these important things.

Now, you've been doing this for like almost, not almost, more than 30 years.

And you've written for any number of publications.

You've been talking to, for, and about these tech leaders.

And many people in many publications refer to you as the most feared and the most liked journalist in tech.

I'm not sure about the liked part, but okay.

How do you walk that line?

I'm from San Francisco.

It's fine.

Do you think that the kinds of people who are succeeding in tech are changing from that sort of man-child or woman-child to a lesser extent into smarter people, people who are perhaps genuinely more socially aware and understanding of the dangers of the web?

Now, is there a way to keep these kinds of billionaires in check?

I mean, you mentioned like the government is at fault, which for many things, but it seems like the more wealth these men mostly accumulate, the less...

Yes, but she seems to be willing to do a little bit of... And I've done a lot of philanthropy.

And so what are the consequences of unchecked... It's not the innovation that I'm worried about, but the unchecked access, the unchecked power, making these rash decisions.

What's the...

Yes, so incompetent people put them in office.

I'm curious about that because oddly enough today, and I haven't even told you this yet, but today I got an email from a man who said that he had made an AI chatbot by teaching it all my books and interviews and essays, et cetera.

And he was like, I think you should use it and it will amuse your followers.

And I was like, no, you need to delete this right now because I exist and I don't need a bot to do me.

But you kind of do, actually.

Yeah, I recognize that this is the way of the future.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

Because after I sent off the email, that was like my gut reaction.

Then he was like, can we talk a little bit more about this?

He didn't even consult me and then thought he was doing me a favor.

And I'm like, you're a white man.

Like, I would never choose you to like...

Lead me into the promised land.

I, you have given me food for thought.

Okay.

That would be great because I know nothing about it and I just need.

Before you got lucky, though, I mean, because everyone starts somewhere.

Were you still able to do this?

Speaking of creative output, Debbie, I think we should ask about the memoir.

I do, but I just want to ask one more question about money.

Let's get busy, Roxanne.

I mean, I've been trying.

And somehow I haven't impregnated you yet.

Lord knows I put in the effort.

Yeah.

Especially, I mean, because you have examples.

Yeah, I mean, a California 10 is really high.

Yeah.

So that's appealing.

It works out.

Okay.

I mean, we will have a little discussion.

She wants seven children, Roxanne.

That's true.

And so tick tock.

I did.

You know, we have one last question.

All right.

With your memoir coming out, it's called Burn Book, A Tech Love Story.

And so I'm curious because you've also said that you hate the people that you write about.

I don't hate all of them.

So how do you balance hating them and then wanting to write a memoir?