Ryan Knutson
Appearances
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
He's also been expanding the list of who is deportable by going after people with a variety of legal statuses, including some with green cards or visas. As part of that expansion, the administration is targeting an obscure program known as humanitarian parole. Humanitarian parole is a part of immigration law that's historically been used for special situations when someone can't get a visa.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
So the idea is kind of like the U.S. will let in some people under certain circumstances out of the kindness of America's heart. But it's only supposed to be temporary.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And specifically, he said he was going to deport immigrants who had committed crimes.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Humanitarian parole has also been used during emergency evacuations, like after the Vietnam War and after the U.S. pulled out of Afghanistan. But humanitarian parole really expanded under the Biden administration, specifically after Russia invaded Ukraine.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
So the Biden administration decided to expand the use of humanitarian parole and use it as the basis of a program called Uniting for Ukraine.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Ultimately, more than 200,000 Ukrainian refugees moved to the U.S. via this program.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
It would solve the Ukrainian immigration issue. Exactly. The program worked so well to get Ukrainians off the U.S. southern border that Biden decided to expand it to other countries in Latin America.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
So Biden decided to offer humanitarian parole to people in Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Once these immigrants had this status and got into the U.S., they're only supposed to be here for two years. What's the next step? Is it just two years and goodbye? Or was there something else that the immigrants could do once they're here to gain more long-term status?
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
More than half a million people entered the U.S. from Latin American countries under the program. And Biden's decision to do this was very controversial.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
That's our colleague Michelle Hackman, who covers immigration. And she says that since Trump took office, the mass deportations have not yet been as mass as he promised.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
So it's sort of like a way to bring people into the United States legally, so they're not just lining up in this giant queue on the southern border. But the fact is that they're now here illegally.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
When Trump took office, he immediately ended the parole program for Cuba, Haiti, Venezuela, and Nicaragua. And no new applicants are being considered. And immigrants who came to the U.S. under the program from Ukraine are now left in limbo.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
When President Trump was on the campaign trail, he made a lofty promise. He said he was going to deport millions of illegal immigrants.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
We'll be right back. Katarina Kirilova grew up in Mariupol, a city in southern Ukraine.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
In February 2022, her hometown came under siege as part of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Katarina says she was an orphan and that her grandmother was the only family she was close to. So she had to find a new place to go. She eventually found the Uniting for Ukraine program and was accepted. What did you bring to the U.S. when you left Ukraine?
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Katarina found a sponsor in Texas, a retired military couple, and moved in with them for a few months. They're really special people for me.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
After Trump took office, Katarina says she got laid off from the non-profit agency where she worked, which lost its government funding. And now, the future of the Uniting for Ukraine program is unclear. Katarina said she hoped her status would be extended until the war ends, but that seems unlikely.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Our colleague Michelle, who covers immigration, says Trump has done more than just end the program. For immigrants who came from Latin America, the Trump administration is revoking some people's status early.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
So to increase the number of deportations, the Trump administration is targeting a new group of people, people who came to the United States legally under certain programs.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
And so what happens to these people once their status expires? Are they expected to just leave on their own? Or is the administration fighting them and deporting them?
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Are there any court challenges to these moves by the Trump administration?
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Katarina is planning to stay until her parole runs out. Then, she says she'll probably go back to Ukraine, despite the risks.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudsen. It's Wednesday, March 19th. Coming up on the show, a new phase in Trump's immigration fight. In recent weeks, the Trump administration has been turning up the heat on deportations. Over the weekend, his administration deported hundreds of Venezuelans without giving them hearings, citing an 18th century law.
The Journal.
A New Phase in Trump's Immigration Fight
That's all for today, Wednesday, March 19th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. If you like our show, follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We're out every weekday afternoon. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
So what's Vail's reputation now in the ski industry and amongst skiers?
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
That's all for today. Wednesday, February 5th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode by Denny Jacob. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Vale has amassed a large customer base over the years. But as that customer base has grown, things have gotten a bit icy.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudson. It's Wednesday, February 5th. Coming up on the show, the problems snowballing at Vail Resorts.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Uh-huh. So you don't go out there and, like, shred the gnar?
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
For decades, skiing in America was pretty straightforward. Ski slopes were largely independent operations. In the business model, it was pretty simple. You bought a day pass, and you went up and down the hill.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
I remember kids in high school that skied. They'd wear their winter coats and have their ski pass on it growing up in Oregon at Mount Hood.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
For most independent ski resorts, which were privately held, this volatility was a headache. But for Vail, it was a big problem. Vale is the only ski resort company in the U.S. that's publicly traded on the stock market. It listed in 1997, meaning the company's sales have to be publicly disclosed each quarter to investors. And investors don't like volatility.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
They just want to see growth all the time. So in 2008, Vale came up with a solution, the Epic Pass.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Wow. This is definitely going to make it into the podcast.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
So at the time that this came out, it was like an incredible deal.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
For consumers, not only was the Epic Pass a good deal at the time, owning a pass meant that if snow conditions were bad at one resort, you could just take your skis or snowboard to one of Vail's other mountains. And over time, Vail kept making its Epic Pass even more epic.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Vail's entire business became about selling the Epic Pass. And at the same time, it dramatically raised the price of a single-day pass, which made the Epic Pass look like an even better deal in comparison.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Grade A Shredder, or Allison as she's more commonly known, knows the biggest name in skiing is Vail Resorts. Vail started out as just one resort near its namesake in Colorado. But over the years, it's grown into a behemoth and now owns and operates 42 ski resorts around the world. And the company has completely revolutionized the business.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
This is like got to be one of the most expensive hobbies that exists.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
And what did the introduction of the Epic Pass mean for Vale's business?
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
The other day, I caught up with my colleague, Allison Polly. Lately, she's been writing about the ski industry. Do you ski?
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
The Epic Pass revolutionized the ski industry. And by the late 2010s, other ski companies introduced their own versions, in many cases by partnering with other ski resorts. Now, two alternatives are the Icon Pass and the Indy Pass, but neither have been able to reach Vail's scale. And when the pandemic hit, tons of people caught the skiing bug. And Vail suddenly had a lot more potential customers.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Right, here's the perfect thing I can do when I'm stuck at home, just go outside and ski.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
The price of the Epic Pass went from $979 down to $783. And it was a huge hit. A lot of people bought it. And what was the sort of peak of this business strategy? Uh...
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Is the downslope going to be a black diamond, a double black diamond, a blue maybe, or a green? Or is that Bunny Hill?
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Before we hit those moguls, we're going to take a quick break in the lodge. After Vale dropped the price of the Epic Pass in 2021, the company saw an avalanche of new customers.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Vail said the crowding wasn't because more people bought the pass. It was due to a global labor shortage that prevented it from opening all the lifts across Vail's resorts. Regardless, many skiers and snowboarders were not happy.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Let's cut the crap. Let's get straight into A Hater's Guide to Vail.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
After bringing in all these new customers, Vale started raising the price of the Epic Pass again. This season, it reached the most expensive it's ever been, at $1,107. Then, at the end of last year, Vale's reputation took another blow. On December 27th, during one of the busiest ski periods of the year, there was a strike at Park City, Utah, Vail's largest resort.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
Ski patrollers walked off the job in a dispute over wages. Okay, one track!
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
During the strike, a significant percentage of runs had to be shut down. But customers said that it wasn't clearly communicated.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
The strike ended after 12 days when Vail agreed to increase union member wages by an average of $4 an hour and added other benefits like parental leave. Vail apologized to its customers and offered credits to people whose skiing experience was negatively impacted. But Vail's labor struggles didn't end with Park City. There have also been issues at Vail's Crested Butte and Breckenridge locations.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
The company says it's working to resolve them. Now, for Vale, after years at the top of the mountain, things are sliding downhill. This season, for the first time ever, sales of the Epic Pass fell by 2%. And the company's stock has dropped by half since its peak at the end of 2021. And then, last week, one of the company's minority shareholders publicly called for big changes.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
I mean, I feel like even just like in pop culture, almost just... The name Vale, like I'm going to Vale, is like, ooh, that's a really high-end, classy thing you're going to go do.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
The investor also called for Vail's CEO, CFO, and executive chairman to be replaced, and its dividends to be cut by 80%. A Vail Resorts spokesperson said the company engages frequently with shareholders and values their feedback. The company attributed the decline in Epic Pass sales to a quote, post-COVID normalization and to light snowfall in some areas.
The Journal.
The Snowballing Problems at Vail Resorts
And they said the company still believes in the Epic Pass model. To turn things around, Vail has been exploring some new ideas. It's trying to get customers to spend more on ski lessons and gear rental, and it's looking to expand its footprint in Europe. It's also cutting costs and says it plans to shrink its corporate workforce by 14% over the next two years.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
What are Idol's plans for the company now? Like, where do you think this company might go?
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
Well, I'm glad that we have you for a few more weeks. And I want our listeners to know that the show is not changing. Co-host Jessica Mendoza and I will still be here telling the most important money, business, and power stories out there.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
Before we go, do you have any questions about the Trump administration? Like about Trump's order to dismantle the Department of Education or the war plans that were accidentally leaked over a group chat? Email us and let us know. Please send a recording of your question to thejournalatwsj.com. That's thejournalatwsj.com. That's all for today. Tuesday, March 25th.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
Special thanks to S&P Global Market Intelligence for investor meeting audio. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
All right, now on to today's episode, which is fittingly about another icon handing off something that she helped build. Here it is. The high-end Italian fashion brand Versace is known for its dramatic clothing.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
That's our colleague Suzanne Kappner, who covers the fashion industry. And she says people on the internet still talk about some of Versace's most famous looks.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
The only piece of Versace that I think that I know or remember is the J-Lo dress, that green one with like the plunging neckline.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
Yeah, I think I was in seventh grade when she wore that dress.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
But the era of such bold Versace designs might be over. Recently, the fashion house made a big announcement. Donatella Versace, who'd been the creative mind behind her family's brand for nearly three decades, is stepping down as creative director. The news followed growing tensions between her and the brand's American corporate owner.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
And now, with Donatella stepping aside, Suzanne says Versace is at a turning point.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudson. It's Tuesday, March 25th. Coming up on the show, the end of the Versace era at Versace. Donatella Versace has been part of the brand's identity since it was founded in Milan by her older brother, Gianni Versace, almost 50 years ago. How central is Donatella Versace to this Versace brand?
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
Donatella's celebrity status was integral to the brand's early growth. She made important relationships with fashion editors and celebrities to help build the brand's profile.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
July 15th, the fashion world is rocked by the murder in Miami Beach of Italian designer Gianni Versace. After Gianni's death, Donatella took his place as creative leader of Versace. In that role, she went on to create some of the brand's most iconic looks and ad campaigns, featuring stars like Madonna, Lady Gaga, and Beyonce.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
But by the early 2000s, Versace the business was having a hard time. It was struggling to compete against bigger brands like LVMH and Kering, which were starting to acquire family-run fashion houses like Christian Dior, Yves Saint Laurent, and Gucci.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
Despite its troubles, Versace wasn't really looking to sell. But then, Donatella Versace met John Idol.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
With Michael Kors, Idol had bought a small business and turned it into a global multi-billion dollar company. And in 2018, he tried to persuade Donatella that he could do the same for Versace.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
Michael Kors bought Versace for just over $2 billion. Idol took over the business side of things, and Donatella stayed on as the brand's creative director. After the sale, Idle changed the name of his company from Michael Kors to Capri, named after an island off the Italian coast.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
But not long after the acquisition, a seam started to tear in their relationship. An early warning sign was that the American executives and Italian designers had a hard time even talking to each other.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
And then, Idol and Donatella started butting heads on the brand's creative vision. That's next. After the pandemic, the luxury fashion market started to change.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
I understand that you have something that you want to share with our listeners.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
It's been so much fun to work with you, Kate, over the last six years on this show. And I know that I can speak on behalf of everybody when I say we're going to miss you a lot. I don't know who's going to miss you more, me or our listeners.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
One estimate shows that between 2022 and 2024, the number of luxury goods sold globally collapsed by more than a fifth. At Versace, the pressure was on. And John Idol stepped in and started weighing in on designs. What was Idol's vision for Versace?
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
In one instance, Idol had men's silk shorts removed from mannequins and Versace store windows because he thought they were too flamboyant. Why? Why did he want to get involved in the sort of creative side if he had sort of pitched the deal as business?
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
Eidel also wanted Versace to add a new insignia, similar to Michael Kors' MK or Louis Vuitton's LV. So the design team came up with a Baroque V that Versace then started putting on handbags.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
Yeah. It's going to be the listeners because I'm going to be in your office every day.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
What did all this flip-flopping mean for Versace's sales?
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
The company's stock is down, too. Since Capri acquired Versace in 2018, its stock has fallen about 40%. So, Idol is now looking for another merger. He tried combining Capri with the fashion house Tapestry, but that deal got blocked by regulators. Now, Suzanne says he's been having talks about possibly selling Versace to Prada. And then, a few weeks ago, came the big announcement.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
What did Donatella Versace say about why she decided to leave?
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
So it sounds like she might have felt a little bit like her hands were tied creatively. Yeah.
The Journal.
Arrivederci, Donatella Versace
After Donatella stepped down, Idol told the Wall Street Journal that he's confident in the vision he'd set for Versace. He said, quote, I guess it's the end of an era for Donatella Versace.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Additional reporting in this episode by Dylan Tokar and Ken Thomas. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudson. It's Tuesday, February 11th. Coming up on the show, is this the end of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau?
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
After the 2008 financial crisis, now Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren, who back then was a law professor at Harvard, led a push to create an agency that would serve as a consumer watchdog on financial institutions.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
In 2010, Democrats in Congress passed a suite of new regulations on the banking industry, without much Republican support, that included Warren's CFPB idea. And in 2011, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau got up and running. So what has it been doing over the course of its life? How has it been regulating the banks?
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Over its roughly 14-year lifespan, the agency has passed a number of regulations aimed at protecting consumers and issued billions of dollars in fines.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
For instance, in 2022, the CFPB reached a settlement with Wells Fargo that included a $1.7 billion fine and that required the bank to give $2 billion back to consumers after the agency said the bank wrongfully foreclosed on homes, illegally repossessed vehicles, and incorrectly charged fees and interest.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
The CFPB says it's returned nearly $20 billion to consumers through things like principal reductions, canceled debts, and direct compensation to consumers. But pretty much ever since its founding, Republican lawmakers have expressed concerns about the agency and tried to get rid of it.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Here's Republican Senator Tim Scott grilling the former head of the CFPB at a hearing in 2023.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
The CFPB doesn't get its funding from Congress. Its money comes from the Federal Reserve, meaning lawmakers aren't as easily able to influence it. Its critics have also said that it relies too heavily on enforcement actions rather than setting regulations, which creates uncertainty for the banking industry.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Over the years, Republicans have introduced bills to limit the CFPB's power, but the agency has so far remained intact. Until Trump appointed a man named Russell Vogt as acting director of the agency. Tell me about Russell Vogt.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Vogt served in Trump's first administration as the head of the Office of Management and Budget, a powerful agency that helps the president manage government spending.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Boat was also one of the co-authors of Project 2025, a conservative plan for reshaping the federal government. Boat wrote a chapter on how the executive branch should have much more authority to control federal spending.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Over the weekend, the Trump administration continued taking a buzzsaw to the federal government. After largely dismantling USAID, a $40 billion agency focused on delivering foreign aid, President Trump's sights are now set on the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, or CFPB. It's an agency that was created in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
And after Trump won the election, he put vote back in charge of the OMB. And not only that, he also became the acting head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. That's after the break. When Russell Vogt became acting head of the CFPB on Friday, employees there had already received a memo ordering them to pause ongoing investigations, litigation, and the implementation of new rules.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
That's our colleague Brian Schwartz. He says Republicans have been railing against the agency for years.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
And staffers from Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE, were inside the agency's internal computer systems. Around the time Vogt took over, Musk posted on X, CFPB RIP, with an emoji of a tombstone.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
So basically at this point, the CFPB is an agency that is like frozen in place. It is not really doing anything.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Boat also said in a post on X on Saturday that the agency would stop taking in money it had previously been allocated. Now, there's a 404 Page Not Found banner across the agency's website, and its X account has been deactivated. What has the response been so far to these actions against the CFPB?
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
In fact, a group of Republican lawmakers, led by Texas Senator Ted Cruz, proposed legislation last month that would effectively defund the CFPB. So what do you think? I mean, ultimately, the CFPB was created with a vision to protect consumers, protect the little guy from the big banks. So if this agency gets largely diminished, what would that mean for consumers?
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
So we have these two powerful Trump allies in Elon Musk and Russell Vogt, both working to dismantle parts of the federal government at Doge and the Office of Management and Budget. Can you help me understand how they're working together? What is the difference between them?
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Here's Vogt a few weeks ago, talking about the work that Doge has been doing.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
I want to go back to this fact about Russell Vogt and how he was one of the co-authors of Project 2025. Didn't Trump try to distance himself from Project 2025 during the campaign? And I recall the Wall Street Journal even reported that the administration was trying not to hire people who are connected to Project 2025.
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
So technically, this action with the CFPB is a freeze. But how far could this go? Do you think this could be the end of the agency as we know it?
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
On Sunday, the National Treasury Employees Union filed a lawsuit against Vogt, aiming to prevent the shutdown of the CFPB. The union said that, quote, "...Congress, not the president, has the power to create or destroy executive branch agencies."
The Journal.
R.I.P. CFPB?
Before we go, do you have any questions about what the Trump administration is up to? Please send us a voice note to thejournalatwsj.com. That's thejournalatwsj.com. We'll try to answer them in our special series, Trump 2.0, which comes out every Friday morning. That's all for today, Tuesday, February 11th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
Coming up on the show, a conversation with Gap CEO Richard Dixon on how he's bringing the roughly 55-year-old company back to life and the challenges that still lie ahead. Richard, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, Ryan, for having me. So my first question is, how much of your current wardrobe is Gap?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
So how are you doing that? Are you importing more products right now, more materials? No, no, no, no.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
There are reciprocal tariffs that are being talked about being put in place. It's not like this is necessarily targeted on one place. So are you thinking about moving your supply chains anywhere? I mean, you have to be preparing for a world where places like Vietnam and Bangladesh do start to see import tariffs. Yeah.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
So is there any chance that Gap will start making jeans in the United States?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
The other thing that's happening in the economy right now is that there is consumer sentiment has been nosediving over the past few weeks. It's now the lowest that it's been since 2022. Are you seeing any changes in consumer behavior across your brands?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
So you're not seeing your customers sort of move down to the more affordable end anymore?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
The last question I have for you is one that I'm just genuinely very curious about, which is that Zach Pozen, your chief creative officer, said in an interview not too long ago, he was quoting you, so this is a bit of hearsay. You said, I've been a Willy Wonka at Mattel, and I need to find my Willy for Gap. What did you mean by that?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
What does it mean to be the Willy Wonka of Mattel, and why is that something that you needed at Gap?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
You do kind of remind me of like a young Gene Wilder a little bit. So I think you can, I think you fit the bill. I just need a top hat. You just need a top hat, but you got the hair already. You got the big smile. I'm holding on. I'm holding on. I'm holding on. You've got the hair. I'm holding on. All right, great. Well, Richard, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
That's all for today. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. If you like our show, follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Rout every weekday afternoon. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
Did you own any denim shirts before you became the CEO of Gaps?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
All right. So we could talk about denim all day, but I want to talk about your job and the challenges that you've been facing and the work that you've been doing as a CEO of Gap. So I want to start just when you took over the brand. When you became CEO of Gap Inc. in August of 2023, what did you see as the biggest challenge the company was facing?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
Why did that happen? Why did they lose their relevance?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
But for the last two decades, things were not looking too good for the Gap Inc., the parent company, which includes Gap and sister companies Old Navy, Banana Republic, and Athleta. Its sales slumped as it faced stiff competition from rival mall chains like American Eagle and fast fashion brands like H&M and Zara. To illustrate just how stagnant the company has been, consider this.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
So how did you set about trying to make Gap more culturally relevant? How do you do that for a brand that used to be cool but isn't that cool anymore?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
So at your last job as the chief operating officer of Mattel, you got a lot of credit for reinvigorating the Barbie brand. Can you draw some comparisons? Were there comparisons that you can draw between what you did at Barbie and Mattel for what you're now doing at Gap?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
Gap stock has been essentially flat over the last 20 years, while the S&P 500 is roughly quadrupled. But recently, things have begun to turn around. Over the last two years, as of March, gap stock is up over 130%. And the person behind that turnaround is CEO Richard Dixon. Dixon joined the company in 2023 after working at Mattel, where he helped revitalize another beloved American brand, Barbie.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
A pair of khakis that comes to life, perhaps.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
So do you think that Gap needs to have its own music streaming service now to get back to the music roots? Look, I think it's possible.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
In the 1990s, the Gap was cool. So cool that supermodels wore shirts and jeans by the retailer on the cover of Vogue magazine. Actress Sharon Stone wore a Gap mock turtleneck to the Academy Awards. And then there were those popular commercials with all the dancers bopping around in khakis and t-shirts.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
I wanted to talk with you about your decision to bring in the fashion designer, Zach Posen, who a lot of people have talked about having a big influence on the brand. He's Gap's creative director. He's been described as a boy wonder in the fashion world. He's well known for his role as a judge on the reality show Project Runway. Why did you want to hire him?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
One of the things that he's been doing is, you know, he dressed Timothee Chalamet at a red carpet event. He dressed Divine Joy Randolph for the Met Gala. How important are things like that? This sort of like little collaborations, little partnerships with celebrities to try to make the brand feel cooler and more relevant?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
And he was at the helm during Barbie's big Hollywood debut, having served as executive producer on the Barbie movie. Now, Dixon is trying to find the same success at Gap. But with the economy facing new headwinds and consumer confidence taking a nosedive, can Dixon pull off the comeback? Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knutson.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
Um, how much is Gap benefiting right now from the fact that the 90s are kind of back in style again? Like, how much do you think that this is what you're doing versus just the fact that trends are cyclical? Maybe there's some nostalgia for Gap, and therefore it's putting some wind in your sails?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
All right, we're going to take a short break. And when we come back, we're going to talk more with Gap Inc. CEO Richard Dixon on how to ensure the momentum doesn't fizzle out and what he sees in the broader economy. What gives you confidence that this turnaround won't fizzle out? I mean, Gap had a little over $15 billion in net sales last year, which is an improvement.
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
It's more than 2023, but it's still less than where the company was in 2018. So what work do you feel like still needs to be done?
The Journal.
He Revived Barbie. Now He’s Turning Around Gap
Speaking of tariffs and economic uncertainty, one of the big stories this year has been the tariffs the Trump administration is putting on countries around the world. Is there anything that concerns you about this business environment and tariffs specifically?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Manipulating the IRRs meant that Neom's executives didn't have to confront their higher-ups, MBS in particular, with the realities of cost. An added dollar of projected cost could just be balanced out by another dollar of expected profit. They could keep the Neom dream going, buoyed by fuzzy math. Elliott says it's an arrangement that seemed to suit both MBS and the people working for him.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
— Eliot calls it a mutual dance of delusion. Tony Harris has another term for it. The emperor has no clothes. To Tony, MBS was the emperor in the fable, parading around in the nude while his advisors complimented him on his new suit. And nowhere was this dynamic more evident than with the line, MBS's plan for those massive parallel skyscrapers running 106 miles into the desert.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Tony didn't work on the line, but the schools he was building were supposed to be housed in it. From the beginning, people at Neom had concerns about the line. You get a flavor of them in an internal document Rory and Elliot saw. They collected staff feedback on the design after MBS first proposed it.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
People also singled out practical issues. The line would negatively affect Neom's wind farm.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
According to Rory and Elliot's reporting, the answer is not so much. Instead, MBS's executives shielded him from the full scope of Neom's challenges and costs. To Tony, it was baffling.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Did you have an urge or any ability to be the one to say that?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
By witnessing people who were fired Elliott and Roy's reporting confirms that employees were often fired for challenging higher-ups on Neom's costs and feasibility. A Neom spokeswoman said that Neom, quote, champions excellence, professionalism, diversity, and ethical conduct, end quote, and requires staff to uphold those values. Did anybody around MBS play the role of bad cop?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Ski executive Andy Wirth again. So that must have been a strange position for you to be in working in this. Like your job is to build out this resort, but like it's only a few months in where you're starting to see, well, this isn't possible.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Mohammed bin Salman, Saudi Arabia's crown prince, was on a mission to construct what amounted to a brand new futuristic city-state within his country. Neom was his vision, his baby. But every visionary needs a right-hand man. MBS's was Nadmi. Nadmi, everyone we talked to called him by his first name, became Neom's CEO in 2018.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
But so what do you do as an executive who has a history of getting things done in an environment where you don't think the goals are achievable?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
One of Andy's favorite things to do at Neom was go hiking up in the mountains.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Sometimes he'd camp overnight. One of his favorite spots was a literal oasis with palm trees jutting out of the desert rock. The hikes irked his boss, Nodmi.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Andy was quickly souring on Neom. The plans for Neom Mountain just didn't make sense to him. And he was increasingly worried about their impact on Neom's pristine mountains.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Andy spent much of his career running ski resorts, so he's definitely not the kind of environmentalist who wants to shut people out of nature. He wants them in it, but not at the expense of destroying a place. He believes development can and should be balanced with conservation. And he was not seeing that balance at Neo Mountain.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
And then Andy learned that MBS himself knew these mountains.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Andy's proposal was essentially to throw out the master plan for Neom Mountain. There would be no vault, no lake. Instead, they'd play up the natural beauty of what they had. The plan would be much cheaper, and in Andy's view, still achieve Neom's goals. He began developing his pitch in secret. And then he says, Nodney got wind of it.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
He's an engineer by training, with round glasses and a trim salt-and-pepper mustache. He came to the CEO job with a track record of delivering on big projects. He'd expanded Saudi Arabia's biggest oil field in the 90s and built a new university complex on the Red Sea. And according to Rory's reporting, he made no apologies for his, let's call it aggressive, management style.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Andy'd known from his earliest days on the job that the plans for Neo Mountain were ambitious. But he'd hoped he'd be able to change things on the ground. So you sort of thought going into it, like, okay, even the sort of crazy ideas you heard about, you thought, well, I get in there, we'll steer this in the right direction. Yeah.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
All of this made him think about something some of his colleagues told him a couple months into the job.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Andy left Neom in September of 2020. He just got on a plane. He didn't tell Nadmi he was quitting until he was out of the country. He lasted five months. Tony lasted a bit longer. The illicit wine might have helped.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
How would you doctor the fruit juice? By like letting it ferment or something?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
For Tony, the bucket of gold still outweighed that second bucket, at least for a time. And that wasn't just true for him. Another former Neom employee told Elliot, people are there, quote, for the income, not the outcome.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
What else other than the money was keeping you going?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Tony and his wife left Neom in May 2021. They'd lasted a year.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Nadmi would last another three years at NEOM. And the story of his departure starts with what should have been a major moment for the project. The grand opening of its very first development, Sindala, that island with a cluster of resorts and parking for your yacht.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Sindala was running three years late and $3 billion over budget. The pressure was growing for Nadmi to finally deliver. And so, in October, he launched Sindala with a big, glitzy party. Will Smith and Tom Brady attended. Alicia Keys performed for an audience of business executives. Super yachts floated in the water nearby.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
But the spectacle couldn't entirely distract from the embarrassing truth about Zendala.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
And still more damning was who hadn't shown up for the launch. What did MBS make of this?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
When they drop down dead, I celebrate, said Nadmi in a private meeting. We reached out to him for an interview, but he didn't respond. People like Tony and Andy, the ski executive, had moved thousands of miles from home to the middle of the desert to help build Neom. But they were quickly realizing that there was something strange about this place. It wasn't just the project's screaming CEO.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Nodmy had presided over years of ballooning costs, staff churn and push deadlines. The dance of delusion had thrived on his watch. But when the time came to deliver, the music stopped, and Nodmy, the man who once declared that he drives people like slaves, was out. There are many stories of visionary CEOs who drive their employees incredibly hard and get miracles out of them.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Since Nadmi's departure, Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund, the PIF, has taken more direct control of Neom, and they're finally coming to grips with the project's true cost.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Eight trillion dollars. I mean, I feel like I already know the answer to this question, but can Saudi Arabia afford that?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Not even close. A NEOM spokeswoman said the journal was incorrectly interpreting the numbers in that presentation. As for NEOM's progress, she said, quote, In some ways, MBS in Saudi Arabia may not need NEOM anymore. Remember that when MBS first came to power, he enacted a bunch of social reforms. And Rory says they've had a huge impact.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Saudi Arabia now has an entertainment sector and a tourism industry. Most importantly, it's less dependent on oil. In 2023, for the first time, 50% of Saudi Arabia's real GDP came from sources other than oil. It's sort of like as MBS was trying to build Neom, this new place where anything was possible, the rest of Saudi Arabia has actually become more like Neom, the place that he was dreaming of.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Meanwhile, construction on Neom continues. Head over to Google Maps and click toward the northwest corner of Saudi Arabia, and you'll see it, an over 60-mile-long gash cutting through the desert. It's a trench marking the future path of the line. The current plan is for Neom to finish the first mile and a half of the line in the next 10 years or so.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Neom was also bleeding money, dysfunction reigned, and very little was actually being built. How long did it take you before you started to think, this is not something that I want to be part of?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
The rest probably won't be completed for decades, if ever. Even within Neom, people worry that that 60-mile trench is a literal money pit. Performative progress leading to nowhere. MBS once said that he wanted to build his pyramids. Only time will tell whether it's a monument to a young leader's vision or his failed ambition.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Before we go, I just want to say that this will be my last Journal episode for a while. I'm going out on paternity leave through the summer, but I'll be back on the show this fall. See you then. That's all for today, Saturday, April 26th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. This episode was produced by Annie Minoff and edited by Catherine Brewer.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
I'm Ryan Knudsen. Additional reporting in this episode by Stephen Kalin and Summer Saeed. Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. Sound design and mixing by Griffin Tanner. Music in this episode by Emma Munger, Griffin Tanner, and Blue Dot Sessions. Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Griffin Tanner. Special thanks to Alex Frangos, Kate Lambaugh, Laura Morris, Sarah Platt, and Tatiana Zamise.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudson. It's Saturday, April 26th. This episode is the second in our two-part deep dive into Neon. Today's episode, The Emperor's New Clothes. To Tony, one of the most surprising things about Neom was how people approached spending.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
The denizens of NEOM piled into the camp's cafeteria. Saudis, expats.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Tony recalls one project he worked on, a hackathon and online leadership program for kids. The idea was to promote Neom's education efforts. There really weren't any kids at Neom yet, since it was still mostly a construction site, so the leadership program was online. And when Tony learned how much he'd been authorized to spend on it, he was flabbergasted. Half a million dollars.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Half a million dollars for some online webinars. For Andy, over at Neom's mountain development, it was the same story.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
As Andy remembers it, Nadmi had called all of Neom's sector heads together. Andy, plus the heads of the sports sector, the health sector, biotech, energy. Nadmi's message?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Andy says he'd only managed to spend $200,000 or $300,000.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Money is being spent, and therefore we are working. Yes.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
What were you spending money on in the time that you were there?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
In 2024, Neom would conduct an internal audit, and the auditors would call out this culture of spending. They described Neom's CEO, Nadmi, as having a, quote, spend-the-budget strategy. But very little of that budget was actually going to build stuff. Instead, it was going to consultants. Remember, consultants had played a key role in the early days, coming up with ideas for Neom.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
But years into the project, Neom had its own staff of experts, people like Tony and Andy. And still, Neom's executives leaned heavily on consultants. According to people familiar with Neom's spending... In a single year, Neom paid McKinsey $130 million and PricewaterhouseCoopers $260 million. Here's Tony again.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
One reason, Tony eventually concluded, was that it was a way for Neom's bosses to protect themselves.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Make a mistake, and you might just find yourself being berated by Nadmi. According to people who worked with him, Nadmi once told an executive in a meeting to walk out into the desert and die so that he could urinate on his grave. Another time, after a deal fell through, he gathered his staff and demanded to know why he hadn't been given a heads-up.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
He said, quote, If you don't tell me who is responsible, I'm going to take a gun from under my desk and shoot you. This is according to people with knowledge in the meeting.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
As one of NAMI's direct reports, Andy says he both witnessed and was on the receiving end of the CEO's wrath.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
What impact do you think that his style had on the overall project and the people who worked there?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Neom says employee welfare is a top priority, and that workers are encouraged to anonymously voice concerns. A spokeswoman also said the project has a, quote, robust governance framework, unquote, and takes expert advice into consideration when making decisions. Neom's designs were ambitious, and that was also true for Neom Mountain.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Soon after joining the project, Andy got his first real peek at the plans for the mountain region. And they were an eye-fall.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
They included plans for something called The Vault, a glittering glass building filled with stores and hotels that Andy said they were going to have to dynamite part of a mountain to build.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
The master plan also called for an artificial lake with a dam that bowed outward in defiance of traditional engineering. Plus that desert ski resort Andy was trying to build. And that wasn't all.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Tony Harris, the education expert you heard from in the last episode, was just a few months into his job at NEOM when he got his first real impression of the project's CEO, Nadmi al-Nasser.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
The Wall Street Journal obtained some early concept art for these mansions and palaces, and the designs are wild. One palace looks like a ribbon of molten metal suspended over a canyon. Another reminded me of the Eye of Sauron from the Lord of the Rings, a pointy black tower with a red light beaming out the top.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
To Andy, the mansions and palaces just didn't make sense.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Neo Mountain was getting more expensive. It's a trend that would continue long after Andy left the project. Reporter Elliot Brown saw some internal NEOM documents from 2023. By this time, NEOM Mountain had been renamed Trojena.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
But as Neom's costs ballooned, it didn't seem to change the project's course. That 2024 audit Neom conducted suggests one reason why. Elliot got a look at a version of that audit. It was labeled Final Draft. And it's pretty damning. According to Neom's auditors and Elliott's own reporting, as costs rose, rather than push for cutbacks to Neom, executives sometimes just fudged the numbers.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
IRRs are basically the percentage of a project's costs that come back to you every year as profit. Now, a lot of what Saudi Arabia was spending on at Neom wasn't supposed to make money. It was infrastructure, stuff like roads and utilities. But other stuff definitely was supposed to be profitable, like the hotels or the apartments they were going to sell on the line.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
As Neom's costs grew, Elliott's reporting shows that executives manipulated the IRRs to keep them around that 9% sweet spot.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 2: The Emperor’s New Clothes
Glamping, like this is sort of, you know, what do they call it? Glamorous camping, like sort of fancy tents.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudson. It's Monday, March 24th. Coming up on the show, why Colombia gave in to Trump. Columbia University got into Trump's crosshairs last year when protests broke out over Israel's war against Hamas in Gaza. Students camped out for weeks. At one point, some of them occupied a school building.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
They were calling for a ceasefire and for the university to divest from companies doing business with Israel. And even some faculty joined in.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
The school's leadership came under intense criticism, especially from conservatives, like then-candidate Donald Trump, who said Columbia didn't do enough to rein in the protests and crack down on anti-Semitism.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Columbia's president, Manoush Shafiq, ended up resigning. And Trump seized on the protests as evidence that college campuses are too left-leaning.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Now that Trump's in office, he's putting his money where his mouth is. And he started withholding federal funding at colleges across the country, including Columbia.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
So it seems like he's sort of following through on a campaign promise to kind of smack down colleges a little bit and change their culture.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
On March 13th, Trump sent Columbia a list of nine specific demands. If the school complied, it might be able to get its $400 million back. The demands included Columbia disciplining the students that had occupied that building during the protests, banning students from wearing masks to conceal their identity, and giving campus police the power to arrest and detain students.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
The Trump administration also wanted Columbia to adopt a formal definition of anti-Semitism and take disciplinary power away from a judicial board and give it to the office of the university president. And there was another demand that made a lot of faculty angry.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
That's our colleague Doug Belkin, who covers higher education. Trump's ultimatum put the storied university between a rock and a hard place, and kicked off a big debate inside the school.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
How is it even possible that the president of the United States can just unilaterally cancel grants and contracts? Like, on what grounds can he even make demands like this?
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Right, the Columbia student who was acting as a spokesman to some of those protests who's now facing deportation.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Which departments at Columbia stood to hurt the most from these funding cuts?
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Earlier this month, the Trump administration gave Columbia University an ultimatum. Get tougher on student protests, or else lose hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
What the impact of their decision might be, that's after the break. So Last week, Columbia outlined its decision regarding Trump's demands in a memo to his administration. And for the most part, it gave Trump what he was asking for. The first thing is that students will no longer be allowed to use masks to conceal their face during an unauthorized protest.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
And then there's the receivership. Columbia agreed to bring in a new administrator to oversee the department that includes Middle Eastern studies, as well as the Center for Palestine Studies.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Columbia said it worked hard to address legitimate concerns from both inside and outside the university, and that it will adopt institutional neutrality, meaning it will stop taking official positions on most political issues. Doesn't Columbia, like a lot of universities, have this massive endowment with billions of dollars in it?
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Why couldn't the university find a way to lean on that instead of the federal funding?
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
But on Friday, after an intense internal debate, Columbia gave in and agreed to make the changes Trump wanted. How big of a deal could this showdown be for America's colleges and universities?
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
So now that Columbia has acquiesced, are they going to get the funding back immediately? Like, how does that work if the federal government has sort of canceled this stuff?
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Huh. So they've given away all these things. There's still no guarantee that they'll get all this money back.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Over the weekend, Education Secretary Linda McMahon was asked about this on CNN.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
How has the academic world been reacting to Columbia's decision?
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Hmm. So this fight almost certainly will change more than just Columbia.
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
Earlier this month, Trump paused $175 million in federal funds to the University of Pennsylvania for allowing a transgender athlete to compete on the women's swim team in 2022. Do you think this will result in fewer protests on college campuses?
The Journal.
Trump's College Crackdown
That's all for today, Monday, March 24th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode by Sarah Randazzo and Liz Esley White. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
That's all for today. Friday, January 31st. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode by Vera Bergen-Gruen, Jack Gillum, Gordon Lubold, Alison Sider, and Andrew Tangle.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
The show is made by Catherine Brewer, Pia Gadkari, Rachel Humphries, Sophie Codner, Jessica Mendoza, Matt Kwong, Kate Leinbaugh, Colin McNulty, Annie Minoff, Laura Morris, Enrique Perez de la Rosa, Sarah Platt, Alessandra Rizzo, Alan Rodriguez Espinosa, Heather Rogers, Pierce Singey, Jivika Verma, Lisa Wang, Catherine Whalen, Tatiana Zamise, and me, Ryan Knudsen. with help from Trina Menino.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
Our engineers are Griffin Tanner, Nathan Singapak, and Peter Leonard. Our theme music is by So Wiley. Additional music this week from Katherine Anderson, Peter Leonard, Billy Libby, Bobby Lord, Nathan Singapak, Griffin Tanner, and Blue Dot Sessions. Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Kate Gallagher. Thanks for listening. See you Monday.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
So you cover the airline industry. Did this accident, did this tragedy surprise you?
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudsen. It's Friday, January 31st. Coming up on the show, the warning signs leading up to this week's deadly crash.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
That's our colleague Ben Katz. He covers aviation.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
Reagan National Airport sits directly across the Potomac River from Washington, D.C. On a clear night, like it was on Wednesday, you can see the glowing white dome of the U.S. Capitol building and the floodlights on the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial during takeoff and landing. What makes this airport and this airspace unique?
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
Why even are there helicopters that are flying along this route where planes are coming in to land and take off?
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
Has the DC airspace always been this congested and this crowded, or has it been getting worse?
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
Flight 5342 was arriving from Wichita, Kansas, and had 64 people on board.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
Just in the past few years, the Senate authorized an increase in flights at Reagan National Airport by as many as 10 per day. Senator Jerry Moran from Kansas said yesterday that he had successfully lobbied American Airlines to use one of its existing slots to fly a direct route to Wichita, the same route that had the crash on Wednesday. When he pushed for it, he said connecting Wichita to D.C.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
with a direct flight would help local companies get federal work.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
The agency charged with overseeing DC's increasingly crowded airspace is the Federal Aviation Administration.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
But in recent years, the FAA has been under pressure. It's faced criticism for its oversight of Boeing. It's seen a lot of turnover in its top leadership. And it's struggled to fully staff air traffic control operations, or ATC, around the country. The FAA has acknowledged the staffing shortages and has worked for years to address it.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
The agency also says it slows down traffic to maintain safety when there aren't enough controllers.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
Wednesday started as a pretty normal day at Reagan National Airport, one of the busiest airports in the nation.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
At the same time the FAA has been struggling to staff air traffic control, there's been an uptick in close calls.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
In 2023, a study commissioned by the FAA found mounting risks to safety and efficiency in U.S. air traffic. At the time, the agency said it had taken several actions to end serious close calls. Near misses have taken place all over the country, including in D.C., Last spring, a pilot flying into Washington Reagan reported coming dangerously close to a military helicopter when coming in to land.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
The alert said the Wichita flight was at risk of colliding with a military helicopter. Air traffic control alerted the helicopter's crew to the plane.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
In a report of that incident, the pilot wrote that there needed to be better separation between plane and helicopter traffic. And then, just a day before Wednesday's crash, a jet that was minutes away from landing aborted to avoid a helicopter in its way.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
And then, on Wednesday, it did. What we know about the cause of the crash? After the break. 67 people are presumed dead from Wednesday's crash. Among the dead is a group of young figure skaters, their coaches and their family members. They were returning from a training camp for up-and-coming athletes in Wichita, Kansas.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
At a press conference outside Boston, where a number of the skaters were based, skating legend Nancy Kerrigan fought through tears to honor the people who died.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
In Wichita, a memorial was set up at the airport.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
What do we know at this point about why this crash might have happened?
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
Helicopters aren't supposed to fly more than 200 feet above the ground along this part of the Potomac River. But when the collision happened, it was flying at over 300 feet.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
Starting today, the FAA temporarily restricted helicopter traffic over Reagan National Airport. What's next in the investigation?
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
How unusual is a tragedy of this scale?
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
The FAA regarded staffing at the tower as adequate at the time of the accident, according to a person familiar with the matter. During a press conference yesterday, President Trump suggested diversity, equity, and inclusion policies were to blame for the accident.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
And what do aviation experts think of that assertion?
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
At a press conference yesterday, NTSB officials were asked about Trump's comments.
The Journal.
A Plane Crash, Warning Signs and an Investigation
How should airline passengers feel? I mean... Would you be comfortable flying into Reagan National Airport after this?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
So another thing that happened this week that sort of related to this idea of cutting back on government spending was these buyout offers for federal employees, which is not something that I... I recall seeing much happen in the federal government. You see it in the private sector all the time. But what do you think is going on here?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
Is this just sort of like, let's cut back on government spending, let's shake loose the people that are maybe not on board with the Trump administration's vision?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
Great. So Donald Trump has been president for 11 days. Is it just me or does it feel like he's trying to do everything everywhere all at once?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
All right, well, before we go, we've got a question from one of our listeners.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
They want disruption. Mm-hmm. Great. All right. Well, thanks so much for your time, Molly, Damien, and we'll see you in a week.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
Thanks a lot. Thanks. This episode has been updated. In an earlier version, we incorrectly said there had been seven cabinet positions confirmed, but as of Friday morning, there have been eight. Before we go, do you have any questions about what the Trump administration is doing? How is it affecting you? Email us and let us know. Please send a voice note to thejournalatwsj.com.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
That's thejournalatwsj.com. Trump 2.0 is part of The Journal, which is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. This episode was produced by Pierce Singey and edited by Catherine Whalen, with help from Tatiana Zamise. Molly Ball is The Wall Street Journal's senior political correspondent. I'm Ryan Knudsen. This episode was engineered by Griffin Tanner.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Peter Leonard. Additional music in this episode by Peter Leonard and Griffin Tanner. Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. Artwork by James Walton. Thanks for listening. Trump 2.0 will be back with a new episode next Friday morning. See you then.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
All right, so before we get into this temporary freeze in federal spending, there are a few other things I want to talk about. First, Trump is putting his cabinet together. And this week, a few of his more controversial nominees had their Senate confirmation hearings. There's Keshe Patel for FBI director, Tulsi Gabbard for director of national intelligence, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
for health secretary. How big of a battle do you think lies ahead for the administration and these nominees?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
It seems like from the hearing so far that most Democrats are most likely to oppose these nominees. But what Republicans do you think might present the biggest hurdles? We saw a few of them flip on Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, who barely cleared his nomination, needing a tie-breaking vote from Vice President J.D. Vance.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
All right. Well, we'll keep our eyes on that. Meanwhile, late last Friday night, Trump fired 17 inspectors general. And if you are not a governmental nerd like Molly and I, inspectors general are the internal government watchdogs who are supposed to make sure federal agencies comply with the law and don't misuse their authority or taxpayer money. So, Molly, why do you think Trump did this?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
Yeah, with hot dog fingers. Is that coming soon?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
Is there any indication that these inspectors general will be replaced quickly, or are these jobs just going to be vacant now for the foreseeable future?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
How would you say overall that things are going for him so far with the strategy?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
All right. So I also want to talk to you about this deadly plane crash that happened late Wednesday night in D.C. More than 60 people are presumed dead. This is the first tragedy in Trump's second term. And it's actually not something that I would expect that we would be talking about on this podcast.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
But President Trump weighed in on it in a press conference on Thursday morning in a way that has drawn a lot of attention. Fake news.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
— What did you make of what the president had to say about this?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
All right. So one of the big stories of the week was the Trump administration's effort to temporarily freeze a big chunk of federal spending. And we are going to talk about that right after this break. So on Monday, the Trump administration issued a memo that said it was going to pause a big chunk of federal spending, the ballpark of $3 trillion worth of federal grants and loans.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
And there has been a whole lot of development since then. So to help us understand it, we brought on Damian Paletta, our Washington, D.C. coverage chief. Hi, Damian. Thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
Molly Ball, senior political correspondent. How are you?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
So can you walk us through what happened here? What is the Trump administration trying to do and why?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
All right. Well, there's a lot to cover here on the show today. So let's get right to it.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
So then a federal judge put a pause on this order. And then the Trump administration came out and said they were rescinding the memo.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
From the Journal, this is Trump 2.0. I'm Ryan Knudson.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
It's Friday, January 31st. Coming up, Trump tries to freeze federal spending. And it doesn't quite go as planned. Or does it?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
Had they rolled it out differently, do you think that it might have had a different outcome?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Whiplash on Federal Spending
And the Impoundment Act, just to say, is this idea that Congress controls the purse strings. They decide how much money should be spent. But there's a view that the executive branch should say, OK, that's a ceiling, but we'll set the floor. We're going to not spend money that you've allocated.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
All right, Nancy has now left the group chat, and it is just you and me, Molly, at least I think. So how have other members of the chat been explaining themselves? There were these hearings this week on Capitol Hill where we heard from two other members of the chat, Director of National Security Tulsi Gabbard and CIA Director John Ratcliffe. What did they say?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Democrats have been expressing a lot of outrage over this, but they don't have the power to open investigations right now, being in the minority. President Trump seems like he's supporting everybody so far. His Attorney General, Pam Bondi, said that a criminal investigation was unlikely. Is there any chance that anyone gets held accountable for this?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
And Mike Waltz on Fox said that he was having Elon Musk look into it from a technical perspective, too. So we'll see where that goes.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Some on the right in the Trump administration have been critical of Jeffrey Goldberg, the journalist who was added to this chat. What's your sort of just general take from a journalistic point of view about how Jeffrey Goldberg handled this situation?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
I took Jess Braven's advice and put the Supreme Court... I picked them to win, but they haven't played any games, so... What?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Yes. I mean, I am a Seattle Mariners fan, first and foremost, and it has been a very, very sad 25 years. Yeah.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
It's Friday, March 28th. Today on the Trump 2.0 group chat, we're going inside the fallout from the private signal conversation that the entire world now gets to be a part of. All right, Molly, so this isn't the first time that handling of classified information has been the subject of political scandal.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Before we go, do you have any questions about what the Trump administration is doing? Email us and let us know. Please send a voice note to thejournal at wsj.com. That's thejournal at wsj.com. Trump 2.0 is part of The Journal, which is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
This episode was produced by Enrique Perez de la Rosa and edited by Catherine Whalen, with help from Matt Kwong and Alessandra Rizzo. Molly Ball is The Wall Street Journal's senior political correspondent. I'm Ryan Knudson. This episode was engineered by Griffin Tanner. Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Peter Leonard. Additional music in this episode by Emma Munger and Griffin Tanner.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. Artwork by James Walton. Trump 2.0 will be back with a new episode next Friday morning. See you then.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
President Biden and President Trump each had investigations launched against them because they held on to classified documents after leaving the White House. During the 2016 campaign, Trump and Republicans criticized Hillary Clinton for keeping sensitive information on a private email server when she was Secretary of State. So is this situation any different?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
All right, well, to help us understand all of the wrinkles of this situation, our colleague Nancy Youssef, who covers national security in the Pentagon, has entered the group chat.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
So you cover national security. What was your reaction when you heard that a journalist had accidentally been added to this highly sensitive group chat?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
I accidentally added the wrong person to a group chat once. I meant to include my friend Bjorn, inviting him to... A party that we were having, and I accidentally, as I learned later, added the wrong Bjorn.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
In terms of the mission itself, what was the goal of this attack?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
The Trump administration in this attack, the U.S. is going after Houthi leadership.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
One of the interesting things about this chat is that you get some insight into the policy debate that's taking place between high ranking Trump administration officials. And in there, you can see some debate between J.D.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Vance and other administration officials about whether or not to proceed with this attack, whether or not the attack conflicts with President Trump's policy agenda when it comes to Europe. Can you explain, Nancy, what this debate is about and what you learned from it?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Yeah, I think in the chat, Vance says something like 3% of U.S. trade runs through the Suez Canal while 40% of European trade does.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
If you need a Bjorn in your life, I have two people I can introduce you to.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Yeah, I love how, you know, J.D. Vance in that chat says, I'm willing to support the consensus of the team and keep these concerns to myself. But there is a strong argument for delaying. Those concerns are no longer being kept to himself.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
We are, of course, talking about the group chat heard around the world. The editor-in-chief of The Atlantic was inadvertently included on a signal conversation between Trump's national security advisor, defense secretary, director of national intelligence, secretary of state, and others discussing an upcoming military strike on the Houthis in Yemen.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Is Signal even allowed on government phones? I know there was an alert that went out recently from the Pentagon about Signal being a potential target of hackers.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
All right, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk more with Nancy about the potential repercussions of the signal leak. So the administration is sort of saying two things in its defense here. One is that these were not war plans. We heard Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth say that in an interview this week.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Nobody was texting war plans, and that's all I have to say about that. And two, that it was not classified. Here's Tulsi Gabbard, Director of National Intelligence, talking about that during a Senate hearing.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Nancy, the Atlantic released the full text thread, so we can see what was actually being discussed here. What do you make of these two arguments that the administration is putting forward?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Oh, she hung up. I guess that's what happens when you are a busy reporter.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
This is obviously embarrassing for the Trump administration, but how big of a deal is it, do you think?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Group Chat Fallout
Not quite as good as getting added to the group chat, but... I know. All right, I know you're busy, Nancy, so I'll just ask you one more question before we let you go. What's the follow-up been like for Pete Hegseth, who was the one who texted what appears to be the most sensitive information, which is the details about the actual pending attack on the Houthis?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
Really, so this time it might be the Democrats that push the government into a shutdown?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
Well, Siobhan, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been great to talk to you.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
All right, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the judiciary. Okay, so we've been talking about the legislative branch so far, but let's turn to the judicial branch. There have been a number of rulings on the Trump administration's actions recently. Where do things stand and what kind of challenges are the courts posing for the Trump administration?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
Are any of these rulings actually stopping the Trump administration's actions? Have you seen anything actually sort of reverse as a result of this?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
All right, so it sounds like the big fireworks are still to come on the judicial front. Let's turn back to the executive branch now. Trump had his first cabinet meeting this week. How would you describe how that went?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
All right, so Molly, let's talk about Congress first. Presidents have always had to work closely with Congress. Some have done it more effectively than others. But tell us about the Congress that Trump is working with.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
There was a moment in the cabinet meeting where Trump turned to everybody in the room and said, is anyone unhappy with Elon? Obviously, this was a rhetorical question. But do you have a sense that there are other cabinet members that are uneasy with what Elon Musk has been doing?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
Big surprise. Right now in Washington, it feels like there is just one, and it is named Donald Trump.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
Before we go, do you have any questions about what the Trump administration is doing? Email us and let us know. Please send a voice note to thejournal at wsj.com. That's thejournal at wsj.com. Trump 2.0 is part of The Journal, which is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
This episode was produced by Enrique Perez de la Rosa and edited by Catherine Whalen, with help from Lisa Wang. Molly Ball is The Wall Street Journal's senior political correspondent. I'm Ryan Knudson. This episode was engineered by Peter Leonard. Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Peter Leonard. Additional music in this episode by Peter Leonard, Billy Libby, and Bobby Lord.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. Artwork by James Walton. Trump 2.0 will be back with a new episode next Friday morning. I will be off, though, so you'll be in good hands with Kate Linebaugh. See you then.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
So let's talk about arguably the most important person in Congress right now, Republican Speaker Mike Johnson. You published a profile of him recently and spent some time with him. After a year and a half in this role now, how would you say he's settled in?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
But he hasn't just been a placeholder, though. He's actually established himself pretty well in this role. So how would you say he did that?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
So Trump so far has been doing a lot of things by executive orders and not so much by working with Congress in the way that past presidents have. But there is one thing that he has said that he wants out of Congress, which is a big, beautiful bill. What does Trump want in that bill?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
So in this race, it seems like the House is ahead at this point because on Tuesday, Johnson narrowly got a budget resolution passed, which is sort of like a first draft of this big, beautiful bill. And to help us understand what was in that resolution, we have our colleague Siobhan Hughes here who covers Congress.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
And Congress isn't the only branch of government that's been busy. So has the judicial branch. There's also been some court rulings both for and against Trump's agenda.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
So, Siobhan, tell us about this big, beautiful first draft, this budget resolution. What was in it and what wasn't in it?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
So which of these approaches do you think is going to prevail? Well,
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
From the Journal, this is Trump 2.0. I'm Ryan Knudsen.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
It's Friday, February 28th. Coming up, what the other two branches of government are up to. And we had our first cabinet meeting, which was dominated by someone who is not actually in the cabinet. Stay with us.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
This budget resolution, though, I mean, as you were saying, it was the narrowest of margins, 217 to 215 in the House. How much of a victory is that? I mean, is Mike Johnson going to be able to hold this together to actually get this all the way across the finish line and turn it into law eventually? Or does this say that it actually might be more tenuous?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
Hmm. I've also been hearing about these town halls where lawmakers have been going back to their districts and getting an earful from their constituents.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
Do you think that this will put pressure on Republicans and possibly have an impact on Trump's agenda?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
One thing that some people in these town halls have been bringing up is this idea that the president is overstepping his authority and that Congress is sort of getting steamrolled by all these executive orders. So how does Mike Johnson, as the Speaker of the House, see these separation of powers questions that have been coming up in the Trump administration?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
Did you know that there are three branches of government?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Big, Beautiful Bill
One more question for you, Siobhan, before we let you go. There is this big bill that Trump wants, which is all about, you know, the budget. But there's also this other important thing that Congress has to do, which is fund the government, right?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
So then it's not just about changing Saudi Arabia or even reinventing the idea of a city. It's also about...
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
MBS was aware that his plans for Neom and Saudi Arabia were ambitious. He's often said that achieving even half of his ambitions would be a win and transformative for his country. But to achieve even a small percentage of the Neom vision would require a massive effort and huge numbers of people willing to move to a remote corner of the desert to make it all real. That's coming up.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
My colleague Rory Jones covers the Middle East. He remembers this announcement and what happened next.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Beginning around 2020, hundreds and then thousands of people packed up their lives and moved to the Saudi desert to deliver Neom, MBS's dream. One of them was Andy.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Andy is an executive in his early 60s. For much of his career, he ran ski resorts, big ones like Squaw Valley and Alpine Meadows near Lake Tahoe.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Andy will tell you he's been very fortunate in his career. He's made enough money to only take on projects he really cares about. And in early 2020, he heard about one that seemed to fit that bill.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
What was NEOM as you understood it from this initial pitch?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Among the things MBS wanted to do was develop Neom's Rocky Red Mountains. He and his advisors envisioned a luxury mountain destination with hiking, mountain biking, and yes, skiing. Neom wanted to hire Andy to lead the mountain project and develop Saudi Arabia's very first world-class ski resort. What was the issue that first came to your mind? Well, snow, natural snowfall.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
It might surprise you to learn that the Saudi mountains do get a dusting of snow in the winter. Not enough to ski on by a long shot. But to Andy, that wasn't a deal breaker.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
That's because NEOM aimed to be a 100% renewable energy project.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
One of MBS's goals is to pivot the country away from oil. NEOM would be part of that. The project would be powered by wind and solar. It would pioneer green hydrogen production. And it would do so on a massive scale. Andy hoped it would be a proof of concept for the world.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
He signed on to head Neom's mountain sector. Another person who joined Neom was Tony Harris. So what was the pitch?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
And in education, you are thinking about programs, curriculums, how to make it better?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
It might seem odd that Neal would recruit an educator. After all, it was primarily a massive construction project. But Neom's leaders were looking to the future. If Neom was going to be a world-class city, it would need world-class schools and experts to help build them. To Tony, Neom's pitch was irresistible.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Tony signed on to help run Neom's education sector. His wife, who's also an educator, joined Neom, too. Soon, they were on a plane headed to Saudi Arabia. They even took their yellow lab, Tanner. They flew to Riyadh, then to Tabuk, before making the two-hour drive to Neom. And what's a drive like?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
The camp was encircled by high-security fencing. Inside were row upon row of identical white cabins. They kind of looked like mobile homes. This is where Neom's white-collar workers lived.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
There was also another population of foreign workers at Neom, the laborers who would actually be building this new city. They were mostly from South Asia, and Tony and Andy didn't see much of them. They lived in separate, even more cramped camps. At NEOM, Tony hit the ground running.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
What curriculum should they use? How many teachers should they hire? Neom's consultants had gotten a head start on some of those questions, like figuring out how big Neom's student population would be. But Tony didn't find much use for their work.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Elsewhere at Neom, Andy was also busy problem solving. Given the lack of snow, Neom's consultants had suggested using a kind of synthetic material to ski on. It almost looked like carpet that could be rolled out along Neom's slopes.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
MBS's message? With Neom, he was going to transform cities, the same way Apple transformed phones.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
But to figure out if this could work, Andy would need data. Data he didn't have.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
And so Andy threw on his hiking boots to see what he could learn about the region he'd been tasked with developing.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
On one of those hikes, Andy stopped by a small radar station operated by the Saudi Air Force. Turns out the staff there collected weather data.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
As far as snowmaking went, that data was actually encouraging. There were weeks during the winter when temperatures in Neom's mountains regularly dropped below freezing, at least for part of the day.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Tell people you're building a ski resort in Saudi Arabia, and the eyebrows go up pretty fast. But here was evidence that it could actually work.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
It wouldn't come cheap, though. Remember, this is the desert. They'd need to bring in water for snowmaking. Andy also needed these very special and very expensive snowmaking machines designed to create snow in warmer temperatures.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
So it was sort of like, this is wild, but it's possible.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Andy told us he liked this part of the job. He liked figuring out how to do the impossible, how to ski in the desert. And there were Andes and Tonys all across Neom, laying plans to suspend stadiums in the air, build green hydrogen plants, desalinate water, build skyscrapers the length of Connecticut. Neom's builders were dreaming big.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
But standing in between them and execution were massive challenges, like runaway spending.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
And the growing realization that all of this might be too expensive for even Saudi Arabia to afford. How would you describe the moment that we're in right now in the Neom story?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
That's coming up in part two of our Neom podcast, Coming Tomorrow. Before we go, I just want to say that these two Neom episodes will be my last for a while. I'm going out on paternity leave through the summer, but I'll be back on the show in the fall. That's all for today, Friday, April 25th. This episode was produced by Annie Minoff and edited by Catherine Brewer.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Additional reporting in this episode by Stephen Kalin, Summer Saeed, and Justin Scheck. Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. The theme remix in today's episode is by Griffin Tanner. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. The show is made by With help from Trina Menino. Our engineers are Griffin Tanner, Nathan Singapak, and Peter Leonard. Our theme music is by So Wiley.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Additional music this week by Catherine Anderson, Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord, Emma Munger, Nathan Singapak, Griffin Tanner, So Wiley, Audio Network, Blue Dot Sessions, and Epidemic Sound. Additional fact-checking this week by Mary Mathis. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Rory had questions. What exactly was NEOM going to be? Who would build it and how quickly? Could Saudi Arabia and MBS actually pull this off? So he and a team of Wall Street Journal reporters started digging. Over the past seven years, they've talked to dozens of people who moved to the Saudi desert to work on NEOM. and they've poured over thousands of pages of internal documents.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
What do you find most interesting about the NEOM story?
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
It was 2017 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Inside the conference hall of a splashy hotel, Fox business host Maria Bartiromo was kicking off Saudi Arabia's big investor conference, sometimes called Davos in the Desert. Gathered beneath glittering chandeliers were the movers and shakers of the business world. They were there to witness a historic announcement.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
But their reporting shows that the project is years behind schedule and projected to be trillions of dollars over budget. And MBS's dream of a desert utopia is looking more like a nightmare. Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudsen. It's Friday, April 25th. Over the next two episodes, we'll be telling the story of Neon.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
This is part one, skiing in the desert. We asked for an interview with a NEOM representative for this podcast, but NEOM declined. In a statement, a NEOM spokeswoman said the project had started the year on, quote, a positive footing. She noted that like any large project, NEOM continues to make changes to ensure its long-term success.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
She also said that NEOM is, quote, unprecedented in terms of ambition and scale. This is how NEOM supporters have often described it, as a breathtakingly ambitious, even utopian project. NEOM would be the next stage of human development, an experiment in a better way of living. But NEOM was also supposed to be something else, a practical solution to some of the kingdom's most pressing problems.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
— From the beginning, MBS was well aware that leading his country into the future would be a tough brief.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Oil. If you had a job in Saudi Arabia, you likely either worked for the state-run oil company or your government job, let's say a teacher, was paid using oil money. Oil was what made the Saudi state run. It was oil all the way down. And MBS knew it couldn't last.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
MBS started to tackle some of these big economic problems with social reforms. When he came to power, men and women weren't allowed to socialize in public. Less than 20% of the workforce were women, and there wasn't much popular entertainment to speak of. MBS began to change that.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Because how do you build a consumer economy? Give people stuff to spend their money on. MBS's social reforms could only go so far, though. This was still Saudi Arabia. It was still a bastion of conservative Islam, still governed by Sharia law.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Here's MBS in a Discovery Channel documentary talking about the genesis of NEOM. Northwest of Saudi Arabia, untouched, almost empty.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Addressing his audience in Arabic, Saudi Arabia's young leader, MBS as he's known, unveiled plans for a place he called Neom.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
The area MBS was planning to develop was huge, roughly the size of Massachusetts. And it wasn't a completely blank slate. There were villages there, and native tribes who'd been calling the area home for generations. They'd need to be relocated, by force if necessary. But for an authoritarian ruler like MBS, that didn't present much of an impediment.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
No, this area was a place where he could enact the radical changes the rest of Saudi Arabia wasn't ready for. In Neom, foreigners would be welcome. It would have its own business-friendly legal system. It would be a home for new industries, tourism, media, biotech, clean energy that could help diversify the Saudi economy. And it would be more socially liberal.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Women could wear bikinis at the beach. There were even discussions about allowing alcohol. And so, MBS went to the people you go to to turn lofty, fantastical visions into reality. Management consultants.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Those 2,000 pages are not a plan for NEOM per se. It's more like a brainstorming document of every conceivable amenity a city of the future could possibly have. And some of these ideas are straight out of sci-fi.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
Neom was a futuristic new city that Saudi Arabia would build from scratch in the middle of the desert. A flashy video drove the idea home.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
In the end, the plans for Neom roughly coalesced around five key developments, each with an appropriately dramatic name. There was Magna, Neom's string of luxury beachfront hotels, Syndala, an island with a cluster of resorts, Oxagon, a port on the Red Sea, Trojena, a mountain resort, and then there was Neom's centerpiece, the actual city part of this futuristic city-state. It was called The Line.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
My colleague Elliot Brown spent years covering real estate. The line is unlike any building he's ever seen, or even ever dreamed about, for that matter.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
The line is a skyscraper, or rather two skyscrapers running parallel to each other. Each tower would stretch 1,600 feet into the air, taller than the Empire State Building, and also run for 106 miles, roughly the length of Connecticut. Yes, that is two skyscrapers, side by side, running for 106 miles. In pictures, it's undeniably striking. Breathtaking, almost.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
The outside of the building would be covered with mirrored glass so that it reflects the desert landscape, blurring the line where the structure ends and nature begins. The entire complex would house around 9 million people. But people would live inside of it.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
The idea of building a city in a line, that came from MBS's architects. But turning it into a skyscraper? MBS has said that was his idea.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
That's because MBS is both the developer and the bank. MBS is the chair of Neom's board, in addition to being the chair of every subproject within Neom. He's also the chair of Neom's main funder, Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund, home to about a trillion dollars of the country's oil wealth. If MBS wanted the line, he was in a good position to get it.
The Journal.
Neom, Pt 1: Skiing in the Desert
The Saudi government and the Saudi wealth fund did not respond to requests for comment. Why does MBS need the line? Why not just build a fancy yet achievable city?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
All right. Now, our favorite segment, we have a question from one of our listeners.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
He's going to win. All right, great. Thanks so much for your time, Jess. Really appreciate it. You bet. All right, last question for you, Molly, before I let you go. We talked last week about the dilemma Democrats are in over a potential government shutdown. Ultimately, Chuck Schumer and a handful of other Senate Democrats decided to join Republicans and vote to keep the government open.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
There has been a ton of blowback from other Democrats who... very, very strongly disagreed with that decision and felt like it was time to take off the gloves, fight hard, leave it all out on the court, to use another basketball metaphor. What's your take on what's happening here?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
And to help us understand what's going on, we're joined by our colleague Jess Braven, who covers the Supreme Court. Hey, Jess, thanks for being here.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
There are calls now for Chuck Schumer to lose his job over this. Do you think that might happen?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
So what's the next point of leverage that the Democrats have on the horizon, if any?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
All right, Molly, the buzzer has sounded. The game is over. We have won and we're moving on to the next round.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
Wait, over like the Supreme Court chamber, like there's a basketball court up there?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
Before we go, do you have any questions about what the Trump administration is doing? Email us and let us know. Please send a voice note to thejournalatwsj.com. That's thejournalatwsj.com. Trump 2.0 is part of The Journal, which is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
This episode was produced by Enrique Perez de la Rosa and edited by Catherine Whalen, with help from Tatiana Zamis. Molly Ball is The Wall Street Journal's senior political correspondent. I'm Ryan Knudson. This episode was engineered by Peter Leonard. Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Peter Leonard. Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. Artwork by James Walton.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
Trump 2.0 will be back with a new episode next Friday morning. Until then, good luck with your brackets and go Ducks.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
I want to see Donald Trump play basketball one-on-one against John Roberts, the Chief Justice, and then we'll see who gets to decide.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
All right, well, I could talk about basketball all day, but it's time to get serious. We started out by talking about this statement from Chief Justice John Roberts, where he effectively said, rebuked President Trump after Trump on Truth Social called a judge a left-wing lunatic and said that he should be impeached for ruling against the administration's latest deportation efforts.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
Jess, can you just bring us up to speed here? What is the series of events that led us to the Chief Justice putting out this statement?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
Right. Okay. The court. Yeah. The Supreme Court. The judicial branch. There is a lot going on there too right now.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
So after the judge issued this order, what happened next?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
So there's two things about this case that are significant. One is the fact that it ultimately led to the statement from the chief justice. But then also that the Trump administration seems like they may have ignored potentially a court order here. How significant is that second aspect of it?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
Did you see this statement from the chief justice?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
So after that little spat, Trump went on Truth Social and heavily criticized the judge, as we've been talking about. He said nobody voted for him. He said it was crooked. He said it was a troublemaker. And he said the judge should be impeached.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
And that's when Roberts issued this statement that said, and I will just read it out loud, "...for more than two centuries, it has been established that impeachment is not an appropriate response to disagreement concerning a judicial decision. The normal appellate review process exists for that purpose."
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
Molly, do you have any sense of whether or not there's an appetite in Congress for impeaching Judge Boasberg or any other judges?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
I'll put this question to either of you, but do you think the Trump administration has a goal? Do you think there's something specific that the Trump administration wants to see? Like, only the Supreme Court can rule, or like, what's the thing that they want out of this question?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
Is there a showdown coming between the executive branch and the judiciary?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
As a legal matter, there is a legitimate argument out there about national injunctions, right? That maybe a federal judge in Texas or San Francisco or wherever shouldn't be able to tell the federal government to stop doing something.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
From The Journal, this is Trump 2.0. I'm Ryan Knudsen.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
Okay, we are going to take a quick timeout. And when we come back, we'll talk about how the Supreme Court's immunity ruling for the president last year is impacting things today. And we'll also do a pulse check on the Democrats. The other thing that the Trump administration has been doing in the realm of the legal system is going after individual law firms.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
It's Friday, March 21st. Coming up, a breakdown of our March Madness brackets. Just kidding. We're going to talk about the Trump administration's friction with the courts. Go Ducks, though. All right, so we're going to talk about the highest court in the land, the Supreme Court, and the rest of the judicial system.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
There was this order against Perkins Coie, another one against Paul Weiss that effectively made it impossible for those firms to interact with the federal government. What is the justification, Jess, for these actions? And what impact is it having on the legal system?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: A Showdown With the Judiciary
These orders got blocked by a judge, at least for now, but is it having a chilling effect on the legal profession or other law firms?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
All right, Molly, before I let you go, I've got one more question. On Wednesday, Trump posted on his media platform, Truth Social, long live the king, referring to himself. This was alongside an announcement that he's going to revoke a Biden era approval of congestion pricing in New York City.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
And then the White House posted an image of Trump wearing a crown that said the same thing, long live the king. Do you think that Trump is just trolling? Or is this a reflection of how he actually sees himself?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
And then there's also this post that he made on social media where he said, he who saves his country does not violate any law, which seems to be sort of part of the same theme.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
We also seem to be making this argument that like that some of these laws that he is accused of flouting, specifically I'm thinking of shutting down government agencies without congressional approval, are that the laws themselves are anti-American or they're part of the problem. And so he is the solution coming in and sort of getting rid of them or saying like these shouldn't apply to me.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
You know, you just spun the globe, put your finger on it. It just so happened to be the place where all the news is right now. Because this week, diplomats from the U.S. and Russia met to negotiate on the future of the war in Ukraine, which was something that the Biden administration was not willing to do without Ukraine at the table.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
So to help us understand this shift in what's been going on with Ukraine, we brought in our colleague Alex Ward, who covers national security. Hi, Alex. Hey, how are you?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
Well, thanks so much for your time, Molly. Really appreciate it.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
Before we go, do you have any questions about what the Trump administration is doing? Email us and let us know. Please send a voice note to thejournalatwsj.com. That's thejournalatwsj.com. Trump 2.0 is part of The Journal, which is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
This episode was produced by Enrique Perez de la Rosa and edited by Katherine Whalen, with help from Pierce Singey. Molly Ball is The Wall Street Journal's senior political correspondent. I'm Ryan Knudson. This episode was engineered by Griffin Tanner. Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Peter Leonard. Additional music in this episode by Katherine Anderson and Emma Munger.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. Artwork by James Walton. Trump 2.0 will be back with a new episode next Friday morning. See you then.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
So Alex, how would you describe how the U.S. government's position is changing on Russia and Ukraine under the Trump administration?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
So regardless of whether Ukraine wants these negotiations or not, these negotiations are now taking place between the U.S. and the Russians. There was a meeting this week in Saudi Arabia. As these negotiations get underway, what's the Trump administration's position compared to the Biden administration's?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
There is another big shift, though, which is in the way Trump is talking about this conflict, and specifically the way he's talking about Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. After Trump's phone call with Putin, Trump said that Zelensky was a dictator, he said there should be new elections in Ukraine, and he accused Ukraine of starting the war. What do you make of that?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
But the Trump administration is willing to do without Ukraine at the table, which marks a pretty big shift in how the U.S. deals with Russia.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
It seems like President Trump is pushing for the war to end, but he's doing a lot of the pushing against Ukraine. And he wants the war to end, even if that means giving in to Russia on some of its demands.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
Molly, could this strategy cost Trump politically in any way if the Trump administration resolves this conflict by giving in to some or many of Russia's demands?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
Let's talk about how Europe is responding to all this. Alex, last week you attended the Munich Security Conference in Germany, which is this major annual convention of European security experts. And Vice President J.D. Vance gave this big speech that seemed to reframe America's relationship with Europe.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
Should anyone be surprised about this based on the way Trump talked about Ukraine and the rest of the world during the campaign?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
Where does Europe go from here? What options does it have?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
A lot to talk about today, as always. From The Journal, this is Trump 2.0. I'm Ryan Knudson.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
So, Alex, how would you describe what the new world order is then under Trump and Trump's worldview?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
— Molly, how long do you think this shift will last? Or will it just change again if a Democrat wins the White House in 2028?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
It's Friday, February 21st. Coming up, President Trump wants to end the war in Ukraine. So how is he going to do it? And what will that mean for the rest of Europe? All right, so we spent the last few weeks talking mostly about President Trump's efforts to cut the federal government. We've been talking about Elon Musk and Doge and USAID. But now the focus has really shifted overseas to Ukraine.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
All right, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk some more with Alex about Russia and the deeper meaning behind Trump's long live the king post. So stick around. All right, Molly, Alex, as you know, we love listener questions on this show. And we've got one from William Green in Brooklyn that happens to be about Russia.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
Do this meaning crack down on immigration, stop policing, speech online, as Vance was alluding to in Munich.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Shaking Up Europe
All right, Alex, thanks so much for your time. Yeah, thanks for having me. Sorry I talked so much.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
Well, so if his arrest and deportation is legally questionable, why do it? What is the message that the Trump administration is trying to send?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
This week, Trump officials also moved to cut about half of the staff of the Department of Education, about 1,500 employees. And Trump is expected to sign an executive order soon that fully dismantles the agency. Why? What is the argument for getting rid of this agency?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
But the Trump administration isn't saying that they're going to get rid of that stuff, right? They just want to break those sort of narrower and more essential functions into different pieces and put them under different agencies.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
And so far, is this the economy that voters were expecting?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
If Republicans have been talking about this for so long, why hasn't it ever been done before?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
All right. Last question for you, Molly, before we say goodbye. We talked about this in our last few episodes, the showdown over a government shutdown. Democrats have been trying to use the threat of a shutdown to win some concessions out of Republicans. But yesterday they threw in the towel and said they would support a Republican bill to keep the government open.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
What had Democrats been hoping to get out of this? And what does it say that they've decided not to let the government shut down?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
What does that say about the calculation the Democrats made?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
All right, Molly. Well, thanks so much, as always, for your time.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
As always, before we go, do you have any questions about what the Trump administration is doing? Please send us a voice recording to thejournalatwsj.com. That's thejournalatwsj.com. Trump 2.0 is part of The Journal, which is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. This episode was produced by Alan Rodriguez-Espinosa and edited by Catherine Whalen.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
From the journal This Is Trump 2.0, I'm Ryan Knudsen.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
Molly Ball is The Wall Street Journal's senior political correspondent. I'm Ryan Knudsen. This episode was engineered by Griffin Tanner. Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Peter Leonard. Additional music in this episode by Bobby Lord and Emma Munger. Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. Artwork by James Walton. Trump 2.0 will be back with a new episode next Friday. See you then.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
It's Friday, March 14th. Coming up, Trump was supposed to be great for the economy. So why is the economy looking so scared? Plus, a Columbia student gets arrested and the Democrats dilemma over a government shutdown. Stay with us.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
How much has Trump accomplished in his first 50 days compared to how much most presidents accomplished in the first 100? Has he set a new land speed record?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
All right, so we are going to talk about the economy today. And to help us understand what is happening in the economy, we've brought in one of the best economic reporters out there, our colleague Nick Timros, who covers the Federal Reserve.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
Well, if you look at the stock market and listen to what businesses are signaling right now, it would seem that a lot of people are afraid that it is not going to go well because the S&P 500 closed in correction territory yesterday, meaning it's down more than 10% from its recent high. Companies are projecting weaker sales, and you're hearing lots more talk about a recession.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
And even President Trump, in an interview on Sunday, wouldn't rule out that a recession was possible.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
Can you lay out as best as you can what Trump is trying to achieve with all these policy experiments and what is he trying to transition America toward?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
Aside from the uncertainty, is there something about the policies themselves that business leaders and economists are concerned about?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
Are there different kinds of recessions? Like the worry during the Biden administration was that the Federal Reserve might cause a recession by raising interest rates too high for too long. But now the concern about a recession seems to be driven by the tariffs.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
All right, Molly, we have made it past the halfway point.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
Well, I want to get your take on this. Given how important the economy is historically for presidents and all politicians, really, how unusual is it to see a president and Donald Trump acknowledging that, yeah, we might go through a period of pain. I can't rule out the possibility of a recession. What do you make of Trump kind of leaning into this uncertainty?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
The unique power of Trump to shape the narrative, though, might only go so far because there was a poll out this week from CNN that found that 56% of the public now disapproves of his handling of the economy, which is the first time this poll has ever found a majority of voters disapproving of Trump on the economy.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
I'm curious what you've been hearing from the business community, from business leaders, about how they're reacting to all this.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
Well, all of this action is starting to create a reaction in the stock market and the broader economy, which is the main thing that I wanted to talk about today. But first of all, can you just remind us how important was the economy to Trump's presidential campaign and ultimate re-election?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
I want to bring in a question from one of our listeners, Charles Park. who, when we got this question, my first thought was, I know exactly who I want to ask this of, and it is Nick Timros, and you are here, so here we go.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
Are they right? So what do you think of this, Nick? Can cutting government spending help ease inflation?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
All right. Before we let you go, Nick, one last question. Let's just cut to the chase. Is there going to be a recession? Yes or no?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
All right. Well, Nick, thank you so much for your time.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
Okay, we're going to take a short break. Don't go anywhere. Something else that's making headlines this week, Molly, is the arrest of a Columbia student, Mahmoud Khalil. Khalil was one of the students that was leading the pro-Palestine protests on Columbia's campus last year, and he often spoke with the media about ending the war in Gaza. The students are here.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy
They are holding their grounds until they get what they want, which is divestment from the Israeli occupation. So Khalil is a legal resident. He has a green card. So first, I'm just curious to know, what is the legal argument that the Trump administration is making for why he can be deported?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
This week, Donald Trump signed an executive order that put a pause on enforcing the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which is a law that prohibits U.S. companies from bribing foreign officials to gain or retain business. What's the Trump administration's rationale for doing this?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
How have people in Washington reacted to this change?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
Trump also issued a pardon for former governor of Illinois, Rod Blagojevich, who'd been convicted of corruption charges about 15 years ago. And then Trump's Justice Department also pushed to drop corruption charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams, who'd been fighting those charges. How do you see these two actions fitting into Trump's vision for the justice system?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
I should point out that the Justice Department said that it's, quote, "...not offering to exchange dismissal of a criminal case for Adams' assistance on immigration enforcement." At the same time, we have seen the Trump administration redeploy resources to focus on immigration enforcement first and foremost across the country.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
I'm good. So today I want to talk about Doge. Last year when Elon Musk started talking about the Department of Government Efficiency or Doge, I wasn't sure how big of a deal it would actually be because it almost seemed like it was a joke at first. I mean, you know, it's named after a dog meme.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
All right, so finally, we've got a question from a listener from Noah in my hometown of Portland, Oregon. He wants to know what you, Molly, think about Trump's comments about taking over new territories, like making Canada the 51st state, renaming the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America, buying Greenland and taking over Gaza.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
And Google Maps, if you live in the U.S., it now says Gulf of America.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
Also because to say Mexico has not gone along with this change, they're still calling it. So it's not sort of an internationally recognized name at this point.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
All right, Molly, well, thank you so much for your time.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
Before we go, do you have any questions about what the Trump administration is doing? Email us and let us know. Please send a voice note to thejournalatwsj.com. That's thejournalatwsj.com. Trump 2.0 is part of The Journal, which is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
This episode was produced by Enrique Perez de la Rosa and edited by Catherine Whalen, with help from Tatiana Zamise. Molly Ball is The Wall Street Journal's senior political correspondent. I'm Ryan Knudson. This episode was engineered by Nathan Singapak. Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Peter Leonard. Additional music in this episode by Peter Leonard, Nathan Singapak, and So Wiley.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. Artwork by James Walton. Trump 2.0 will be back with a new episode next Friday morning. See you then.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
All right, I want to start with this appearance Elon Musk made in the Oval Office alongside President Trump on Tuesday. Or I should say Elon Musk and his four-year-old son, X. This is X, and he's a great guy, high IQ.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
Musk did most of the talking, and this was really the first time he had taken any questions from reporters about the work he's doing with Doge.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
And his overall message seemed to be that he was finding all these instances of corruption and government waste and that Doge was getting rid of the bureaucracy and restoring democracy.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
I tell you, gravitas can be difficult sometimes. So I want to bring in our colleague Tim Higgins, who arguably knows Elon Musk better than anyone at The Wall Street Journal. Tim, you've covered Elon for how many years now? Ten?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
It's been many years. Several years. Multiple years. You've written a book about the early days of Tesla, and you're at a column right now for The Wall Street Journal that's mostly about Elon Musk. So thank you for joining us. Thank you. So Tim, I said earlier how surprised I was about how big of a deal Doge has become, but...
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
Does what's happening right now and the way Elon Musk is going about it surprise you, given what you know about him?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
But less than a month into Trump's presidency, Doge and Elon Musk have actually been one of the most significant forces in the Trump administration.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
And the way he's known to run things, as he would put it, is pretty hardcore. He's known for thinking big, but also making drastic cuts and being disruptive and also being pretty tough on his employees.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
Is that going to be the new name for the United States of America? Like UXA or something?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
This is not a company. I mean, the U.S. government, of course, is not a company that he owns. I mean, he's a, what is this technical status, a quasi-government employee at this point? Special government employee, I think is the term. Special government employee.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
But like, how will this, the Silicon Valley strategy of just sort of moving fast and breaking things, is that going to translate to government in the same way that it does when he's the sole owner of a company that he, you know, has taken private? Yeah.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
Musk has been making a lot of claims about the kind of wasteful spending that Doge is finding. And they've been posting these screenshots on X of line items that they say look suspicious. But there doesn't actually seem to be that much detail about what the money is actually being used for. So what do you make of that and the way Musk is communicating what Doge is doing?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
Musk is certainly creating the appearance of momentum, but how successful do you think his effort will ultimately be in shrinking the size of the federal government?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
Molly Ball, senior political correspondent. How are you?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
A mystery that we will try to solve. From the Journal, this is Trump 2.0. I'm Ryan Knutson.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
It is kind of the Elon Musk strategy that was deployed, especially at SpaceX and at Tesla. It's like, delete, delete, delete, delete, delete, get rid of everything that you possibly can. And then if the rocket ship blows up, okay, add that one thing back. And it seems like he's applying that same kind of strategy at the federal government.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
One of the things that I found interesting during this press event with Musk and Trump in the Oval Office was that almost every time Trump chimed in, it was to criticize the judges that were issuing rulings that are slowing things down.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
It's Friday, February 14th. Coming up, Doge. It used to be just a meme, and now it's taking apart the federal government. We'll also talk about the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, the mayor of New York, Canada, Greenland, Gaza. Stay tuned.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
I want to talk about the relationship between Donald Trump and Elon Musk. The other day, Elon Musk posted on X, I love Donald Trump as much as a straight man can love another man. I mean, happy Valentine's Day right there. Yeah, I wonder if they exchanged cards. But Tim, what do you make of the relationship between them?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
I mean, Musk has not had to deal with someone as powerful as the president in any of his companies before.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: The Musk-Trump Bromance
All right, cool. Thanks so much, Tim. We really appreciate your time. Yeah, thank you. We are going to take a short break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about stopping corruption laws, the ones that prevent American companies from bribing foreign officials.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
This feels like a major departure from the way Trump has talked about foreign entanglements in the past. So how seriously do you think we should take this idea?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
Mm-hmm. So the last thing I wanted to get your take on today was what you're seeing from Democrats right now. Obviously, the Trump administration has been moving with lightning speed on a number of different fronts. How would you characterize how Democrats have been responding thus far?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
Well, this has been a fascinating conversation as always. Any final thoughts to leave us with as we head into the weekend?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
Before we go, do you have any questions for us about what the Trump administration is doing? Do you work for the federal government and are considering taking that buyout? Email us and let us know. Please send a voice note to thejournalatwsj.com. That's thejournalatwsj.com. Trump 2.0 is part of The Journal, which is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
This episode was produced by Enrique Perez de la Rosa and edited by Catherine Whalen, with help from Alessandra Rizzo. Molly Ball is The Wall Street Journal's senior political correspondent. I'm Ryan Knudson. This episode was engineered by Peter Leonard. Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Peter Leonard. Additional music in this episode by Bobby Lord, Emma Munger, and Griffin Tanner.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. Artwork by James Walton. Trump 2.0 will be back with a new episode next Friday morning. See you then.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
All right, so let's start out today by talking about the dismantling of the U.S. Agency for International Development, or USAID. This was a $40 billion agency with about 10,000 employees that basically just shut down in a matter of days. And our colleague Joel Schechtman has been writing about it. So we brought Joel in to help us understand what's going on. Hi, Joel. Hey, how's it going?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
All right. So, Joel, let's start with the very basics. What is USAID and why has the Trump administration decided to tear it apart?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
So at this point, most of the remaining employees at USAID are being put on administrative leave as of the end of today. The headquarters has been shuttered. Its website is down. Its ex-account no longer exists. I mean, is this agency effectively toast?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
So what is it like being a reporter right now in Washington?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
Yeah, I was going to ask you about this, Malik, because, like, can the Trump administration just do this? I mean, given that this is an agency that was created by Congress, doesn't Congress need to be the one that authorizes its demise?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
So do you think it's possible that this could be what we've seen with USAID, like a blueprint for how the Trump administration wants to approach the dismantling of other agencies that we know that they have set their sights on?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
Specifically, I'm thinking of the Department of Education, which the Wall Street Journal has reported the Trump administration is already discussing how to effectively dismantle if not entirely get rid of, but severely shrink.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
How long do you think the Trump administration can keep up this pace?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
So it sounds like this might not necessarily be the end of USAID and that there is a chance it could come back to life at some point. But in the meantime, this agency has effectively been eliminated. So I'm curious, what do you think is going to happen to the agency's workers and the people who are receiving aid from USAID?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
While you're here, Joel, I wanted to talk with you about the CIA, which is an agency you've covered closely over the years. There's a new Trump-appointed director running the agency, and this week an email went out to employees they're offering buyouts. Tell us about what the Trump administration is trying to do to the CIA right now.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
All right, well, thanks, Joel, so much for your time and helping us understand all this stuff. Yeah, great to be on the show. Thanks a lot.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
All right, we're going to take a short break, and when we come back, Molly and I are going to talk about tariffs, Gaza, and the Democrats. So let's talk about tariffs. Trump announced late last week that he was going to impose a 25% tariff on Canada and Mexico and 10% tariffs on Chinese imports.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
All right, so there is, once again, a lot to talk about. From The Journal, this is Trump 2.0. I'm Ryan Knudson.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
That was supposed to go into effect on Tuesday, but then on Monday, Trump said he reached a deal with Canada and Mexico and that they would be delaying imposing those tariffs for 30 days. So, Molly, Trump obviously made tariffs a central piece of his campaign. What's your take on the way this played out?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
So it's the third week of Donald Trump's presidency. And again, it has been another week of what feels like nonstop news. We had tariffs. We had the dismantling of a $40 billion government agency, USAID. And we had Trump saying that the U.S. should take over Gaza.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
Yeah, it seems like Trump was treating Canada and Mexico very differently than China. I mean, there doesn't seem to be the same degree of negotiations taking place right now. So where do you think the negotiations with China and the Chinese tariffs are headed?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
It's Friday, February 7th. Coming up, USAID, the CIA, tariffs, Gaza — We're going to try to turn that fire hose into a drinking fountain. Stay with us.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Less Foreign Aid, More Tariffs
So switching gears, at a press conference this week with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Trump said that he wanted the U.S. to take over Gaza and resettle Palestinians in other countries.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Our engineers are Griffin Tanner, Nathan Singapak, and Peter Leonard. Our theme music is by So Wiley. Additional music this week by Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord, Emma Munger, Nathan Singapak, So Wiley, Epidemic Sound, and Blue Dot Sessions. Fact-checking this week by Mary Mathis, Kate Gallagher, and Najwa Jamal. Thanks for listening. See you Monday.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Sounds like a lot of people are clenching their teeth over this.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudson. It's Friday, April 4th. Coming up on the show, the fight over fluoride in America's water. Fluoride is a mineral that occurs naturally in some water sources and can be found in certain foods.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Our colleague Chris Marr has been reporting on one of the biggest debates in teeth, whether or not fluoride should be added to drinking water. For decades, municipalities around the U.S. have been doing this to improve oral health. But recently, fluoride has become more controversial.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
The history of fluoride science in the U.S. dates all the way back to 1901, when a dentist in Colorado Springs started to study what he called Colorado brown stain.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
the dentist realized that people who had this brown stain from too much fluoride were also less likely to have cavities. Over the next few decades, other studies backed up those findings. And in 1945, Grand Rapids, Michigan became the first city in the country to add fluoride to its water supply.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Not with so much fluoride that it would cause those brown stains, but with just enough to reduce cavities. Why did people feel like it was needed back then?
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
By the 1950s, companies started putting fluoride in toothpaste and mouthwash. Crest introduced its first fluoride toothpaste in 1956.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
And early research seemed to say that fluoride, when it was put in water and available broadly, was something like a miracle defense against cavities, especially when it came to lower-income children who often didn't have regular access to dental care.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
But along with people who thought it was miraculous, there have always been skeptics.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
But for a long time, those concerns were considered fringe. For instance, in the 1964 movie Dr. Strangelove, this was the sign that one of the main characters had gone off the deep end.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
But in recent years, new data has given fluoride skepticism new legitimacy. A number of studies have been published over the last decade about the impact of fluoride on the brain and thyroid. Some studies have shown that higher levels of exposure were associated with lower IQ, or ADHD. Other studies show that it could be harmful to a baby's neurological development.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
And then, last year, a big report looking into fluoride was published by the National Toxicology Program.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Over the past year, communities across the country have started to reconsider fluoride.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
The report, which came out in August, validated some of those concerns about fluoride. It found that at high levels, levels double what is allowed in U.S. drinking water, fluoride could negatively impact kids.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
The report found with moderate confidence that elevated levels of fluoride could be associated with a decrease in IQ. One month after the report came out, a judge issued a major ruling against fluoride. This came after a group of parents had petitioned the Environmental Protection Agency about fluoride.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
There's one more thing that's helped bring the fluoride debate into the mainstream. The rise of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Just before President Trump nominated him to run the Department of Health and Human Services, RFK made a big promise about fluoride.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
That hasn't happened yet, but it could be getting closer. That's after the break. The decision about whether or not to put fluoride in the water is generally up to local cities and towns. And now, with everything that's happened, the fluoride debate is catching fire.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
And last week, Utah became the very first state to ban local governments from adding fluoride to water.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Chris attended one of those meetings in February in a town in Florida called Bartow.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Bartow held their fluoride town hall in the city's civic center. They had 50 chairs set out for residents, all filled, with more people standing in the back.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
The first person to speak was a pro-fluoride lobbyist named Dr. Johnny Johnson. He travels around the country attending debates like this one.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
He must have been excited to be in Florida talking about fluoride. At the town hall in Florida, Johnson ditched the fluoride T-shirt in favor of a button-down.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Does Johnson or the rest of the dental industry have any financial incentives here? I mean, like, is there sort of like big fluoride that's trying to protect their business in some way?
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
But is anybody making money off the fact that there's fluoride in the water? And is that influencing this debate in any way?
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
At the town hall, after Johnson finished speaking, the anti-fluoride camp took the mic. One person there to represent it was Florida's Surgeon General, Dr. Joseph Latipo.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
Latipo said the benefits of fluoride were outweighed by the risks.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
For now, localities are largely being left to make sense of the research themselves, something Bartow's mayor said she felt like they shouldn't have to do.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
While Bartow decided to keep fluoride, other places are coming to different conclusions. Like in Utah last week, where the governor signed a bill banning the addition of fluoride in drinking water. One thing Chris says he's watching for now is what RFK Jr. does.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
And Chris says more bans could be coming. The debate over fluoride is a tricky one because both sides say they're just looking out for the public's health. And both sides also say that they have the science to back it up.
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
With these fights happening all across the country, is there a sense right now that fluoride is generally winning or losing?
The Journal.
The Fight Over Fluoride
That's all for today. Friday, April 4th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. The show is made by Laura Morris, Enrique Perez de la Rosa, Sarah Platt, Alessandra Rizzo, Alan Rodriguez-Espinosa, Heather Rogers, Pierce Singey, Jivika Verma, Lisa Wang, Catherine Whalen, Tatiana Zamise, and me, Ryan Knudsen, with help from Trina Menino.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Speaking of the immigration laws, we have a question from a listener, Doug Hunt from Colorado Springs, who is wondering about this very thing.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Molly, what's your sense of whether or not we'll see immigration reform legislation get passed in Congress during Trump's administration? Yeah.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Okay, guys. Well, that was enlightening as always. Michelle, thank you so much for being here. Thank you.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
All right, Molly. Well, I know that this is, we're not at 100 days yet of the Trump administration, but this is my last episode with you. I am starting paternity leave next week.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Thank you very much. Yes, I'll be honest. I'm looking a little bit forward to stepping off the Trump treadmill.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Yeah, I don't know how you political reporters do it. You will be in good hands with Kate Limbaugh, though, who's going to take my place and get us across the 100-day finish line. And I will certainly be listening.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
How might this affect Trump politically if the economy is headed in the way most economists seem to expect?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
I think I know who to email. I think I know. Yeah, I'm going to do that. Thejournalatwsj.com.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Yes, I'm going to do that, actually. I am literally going to do that. Watch for that. Watch the space, as they say.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Before we go, do you have any questions about what the Trump administration is doing? Email us and let us know. Please send a voice note to thejournalatwsj.com. That's thejournalatwsj.com. Trump 2.0 is part of The Journal, which is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
This episode was produced by Enrique Perez de la Rosa with help from Alessandra Rizzo and edited by Catherine Whalen. Molly Ball is The Wall Street Journal's senior political correspondent. I'm Ryan Knudsen. This episode was engineered by Nathan Singapak. Our theme music is by So Wiley and remixed by Peter Leonard. Fact-checking by Kate Gallagher. Artwork by James Walton.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Trump 2.0 will be back with a new episode next Friday morning with Kate Leinbaugh. See you then.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
No kidding. I thought that everything bounced off Trump, no matter what it possibly is.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Right. That's what the fireworks were. Investors' heads exploding over this news. We are, of course, talking about President Trump's announcement to impose massive tariffs on virtually every country in the world. something that he's been calling Liberation Day. And while the economy didn't quite blow up, Wall Street was not celebrating.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
How much time do you think Americans will give Trump for things to turn around before they say, no, this is not working for us?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
America spent much of the last century trying to set up this global free trade system. Trump has now undone that in a very short period of time. Is there any going back from this? Do you think that this is going to be just a sort of the bookmark end of free trade as we know it?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Or do you think that in a democratic administration or any administration that comes after Trump, unless he is successful in getting that third term that he's been talking so much about, where these tariffs could be rolled back and we could go back to the way things were beforehand?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
All right, I guess we'll have to wait and see if Trump is right and this ushers in a new golden age, or if all those economists are right and this ushers in a period of economic hardship. Meanwhile, I want to turn to something else, which is these two special congressional elections in Florida.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
These were to replace two lawmakers, Matt Gaetz, who Trump nominated for attorney general, but then later withdrew, and Mike Waltz, Trump's national security officer, who is, of course, of the Signal group chat fame that we talked about last week. Molly, can you walk us through the results of these special elections and what we learned from them?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Markets went down a lot, and a lot of business leaders are kind of freaking out right now.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Right. In Wisconsin, a state that Trump only won by about a percentage point in 2024, there was an election for a seat on the Wisconsin Supreme Court where the liberal judge prevailed over her conservative rival. How big of a deal is this result?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
And one of the people who put in a lot of money was Elon Musk.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Musk did say on X that this is basically all part of his chess game, saying, quote, I expected to lose, but there is value to losing a piece for a positional gain. All right, we are going to take a short break, and when we come back, we'll talk about immigration, deportations, and the border. Okay, so let's turn our focus to immigration.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
This is something Trump made a really big deal about on the campaign trail. And sure enough, the Trump administration has made a big push on deportations during the first two months of his presidency, but not necessarily in the way people expected. In the last week or so, we've had tourists detained at the border, foreign students with green cards or visas detained.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
basically snatched off the street, and even a Venezuelan immigrant with protected status that the administration admitted it sent to a prison in El Salvador by mistake. To help break down where things stand on immigration, we brought in our colleague, immigration expert Michelle Hackman. Hi, Michelle.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
So Trump made a lot of big promises about mass deportations and all the things that he was going to do to change immigration once he became president. How would you say that that's all going now that we're a couple months in?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
I want to ask about the border, Michelle. Crossings at the border are down under Trump. Is there anything specific that the Trump administration is doing to prevent people from trying to cross the border illegally, other than just to sort of send a signal that this is not a friendly place for immigrants to come anymore?
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Getting back to deportations, they seem to be happening at a smaller scale, but it seems like it's happening at a more high-profile scale because we're seeing these students right now, specifically on college campuses, people who have visas or in some cases green cards, who are being picked up and deported. So can you explain the strategy here and sort of what the legal basis is for that? Sure.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
From The Journal, this is Trump 2.0. I'm Ryan Knudson.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
It's Friday, April 4th. Coming up, we'll talk about the fallout from Trump's tariff plan, go over some election results, and dive deep on Trump's deportation efforts. Stay with us. So, Molly, the business world is reacting very negatively to Trump's tariff plan. The stock market is down. Many economists are now saying a recession is much more likely.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
And that's something that Tom Homan, the head of ICE, has talked about, right? He has said that Congress needs to give him more money so that he can accomplish more of this agenda.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
Politically, Molly, how do you think that this is playing for the Trump administration? Because on the one hand, a lot of Americans really want the government and Trump to be tough, tough, tough.
The Journal.
Trump 2.0: Trade Wars and Deportation Battles
But then on the other hand, when you see these videos of like that tough student being picked up by these agents with masks on, there's also a lot of reaction from people, I mean, primarily on the left, but not entirely. People saying that this is dystopian, this is terrifying to just be picked up and swept away like this.