Sabrina Tavernisi

And what does it mean that it goes from the Army to the Ministry of State Security? Why is that important?

And what does it mean that it goes from the Army to the Ministry of State Security? Why is that important?

David, what's an example of the Chinese getting better? If you think back to the turning points in surveillance in China, what's an example?

David, what's an example of the Chinese getting better? If you think back to the turning points in surveillance in China, what's an example?

Okay, so China is getting much better at all of this. That extra funding and people and focus is really starting to pay off. But big picture here, David, what is China trying to do with all of this? Like, what's it really up to here?

Okay, so China is getting much better at all of this. That extra funding and people and focus is really starting to pay off. But big picture here, David, what is China trying to do with all of this? Like, what's it really up to here?

Right.

Right.

So that's a huge step up, right? It's not just surveillance in this case. It's actually disrupting critical processes that are required for defense.

So that's a huge step up, right? It's not just surveillance in this case. It's actually disrupting critical processes that are required for defense.

Okay, so that brings us to today and to this salt typhoon hack, which you say is still a problem because it's still lurking in our phone systems.

Okay, so that brings us to today and to this salt typhoon hack, which you say is still a problem because it's still lurking in our phone systems.

OK, so that's clearly a very serious problem.

OK, so that's clearly a very serious problem.

It's not an easy engineering problem. So, David, just stepping back here for a second and thinking about this big picture, this all comes at quite a moment of potential change. We're just weeks away from President-elect Trump's inauguration with all of the potential kind of change and chaos he might bring with him on China, on a lot of these issues.

It's not an easy engineering problem. So, David, just stepping back here for a second and thinking about this big picture, this all comes at quite a moment of potential change. We're just weeks away from President-elect Trump's inauguration with all of the potential kind of change and chaos he might bring with him on China, on a lot of these issues.

And I'm wondering how you see it right now, what all of this means.

And I'm wondering how you see it right now, what all of this means.

Well, David, it sounds like we're going to have you on for more episodes about hacking in the future.

Well, David, it sounds like we're going to have you on for more episodes about hacking in the future.