Sabrina Tavernisi

So that probably made people pretty mad. Like that would have been a galvanizing force for people who really didn't like the idea of being forced to take vaccines.

So that probably made people pretty mad. Like that would have been a galvanizing force for people who really didn't like the idea of being forced to take vaccines.

Interesting. So it's bringing in this kind of sort of libertarian sensibility to the thing that had been the earthy, crunchy, lefty mom thing.

Interesting. So it's bringing in this kind of sort of libertarian sensibility to the thing that had been the earthy, crunchy, lefty mom thing.

Okay, so bring us to the pandemic, where all of this language, you know, now we're quite familiar with starts to really happen more and more. And not just with a fringe group of people, but a lot of people. Like, this was the moment when I first understood just how big a portion of the population had skepticism about the medical establishment.

Okay, so bring us to the pandemic, where all of this language, you know, now we're quite familiar with starts to really happen more and more. And not just with a fringe group of people, but a lot of people. Like, this was the moment when I first understood just how big a portion of the population had skepticism about the medical establishment.

Right. It was like such a chaotic time. And that felt like that was the thing that people could actually control. Right. It's like I can tell you what you can't put in my body. That was like the last act of agency in some way that people had. Exactly. And I should add that you've also got social media.

Right. It was like such a chaotic time. And that felt like that was the thing that people could actually control. Right. It's like I can tell you what you can't put in my body. That was like the last act of agency in some way that people had. Exactly. And I should add that you've also got social media.

I remember the Biden administration asking or telling the tech companies to take down some of this stuff, that there was this profusion of misinformation.

I remember the Biden administration asking or telling the tech companies to take down some of this stuff, that there was this profusion of misinformation.

We'll be right back.

We'll be right back.

So Cheryl, you said that RFK was in a lot of ways a natural leader for this movement because he'd been saying a lot of these things for years. But how did he come to be involved in the anti-vax medical freedom movement to begin with?

So Cheryl, you said that RFK was in a lot of ways a natural leader for this movement because he'd been saying a lot of these things for years. But how did he come to be involved in the anti-vax medical freedom movement to begin with?

So take us back to the pandemic. You said that it really crystallized this moment of anti-vax, anti-big pharma, anti-establishment. How did RFK plug into that?

So take us back to the pandemic. You said that it really crystallized this moment of anti-vax, anti-big pharma, anti-establishment. How did RFK plug into that?

So pretty wild stuff, in other words.

So pretty wild stuff, in other words.

It was pretty crazy when that happened. I mean, I remember him as kind of the spoiler for both parties and then signing up with Trump, which didn't entirely make sense to me from an RFK perspective. I mean, Trump is this guy who's famous for fast food and doesn't really seem that concerned about health or environmental regulation.

It was pretty crazy when that happened. I mean, I remember him as kind of the spoiler for both parties and then signing up with Trump, which didn't entirely make sense to me from an RFK perspective. I mean, Trump is this guy who's famous for fast food and doesn't really seem that concerned about health or environmental regulation.