Sanne de Boer

So we have all these horror stories and the drunkards really made a lot of money from those.

So they had this capital to start with and in fact, do a lot of things with.

But the board was also built with public money.

It was also a really... Yeah, so it's parts, probably, both parts.

And for sure, there was a lot of subsidies that went into it as well.

It was difficult, in a sense, writing the book because I really wanted to demythologize these figures and not help them build a sort of iconic image of themselves, which they're already so good at otherwise, at the same time, and help present them

also to make people aware of the actual threat they could be posing, but to keep that in balance.

I mean, for sure, probably the idea is to have as much profit as possible, of course, but it's been very helpful for the Dungate.

And I think the smartest people in the organization have been aware of the fact that it's very useful for them to appear

poor.

I mean, that's part of their image and part of the way they present themselves.

We've had an investigation here in Holland where we've had some clans investing in restaurants and there was some conversations that the police overheard about

I think it was a nephew of this restaurant owner coming over and he was sort of beginning to dress, you know, a little bit with more fancy clothes.

And it's like, no, you cannot do that over here.

You know, we don't want to attract attention from the police.

It's really part of their modus operandi.

Like it's much part of the way they infiltrate societies and exploit the weaknesses because they know if they look like gangsters, that will attract some suspicion.

Yeah, so that could be.

Of course, I also want to make the point, I think it's important to make the point that we have to be super careful not to stigmatize Italian communities in Australia, collaborating communities.

That would be such a shame and unfair to them.