Scott Johnson

And I think, I mean, your descriptions of, of the pathological liar that you wrote about and encountered overlap.

very neatly on a lot of the behavior that I saw with this individual.

Just lying about random, easily disprovable things that just made no sense at all.

I mean, it was almost, there were a few instances that I learned about where the lying was, I mean, it was so reckless and so almost whimsical, like it was just completely...

unmoored from any sense of reality.

I mean, you could disprove it in a second.

And yeah, I think there was a very strong propensity to do that because, yeah, it afforded a certain amount of pleasure.

I think what you said about fooling people is key.

I spoke to a number of experts

on psychopathy and various other pathologies, uh, just to get, you know, to get my head around what I, what I might be dealing with with this person.

And so I learned quite a bit about these different personality disorders and, and, um,

in the process of reporting the book and the documentary.

And one of the themes that came up was this issue of kind of fooling people, getting one over on other people and the pleasure that can be had

They can be derived from going through with these really elaborate ruses and then sort of stepping back and seeing how people stumble and fall and trip over themselves in these traps that you've made.

And that was really interesting to learn about.

I mean, he has lots of, he had lots of different names obviously, but, but we, he's most commonly known as Harvey.

So we can call him Harvey for the purposes of the show.

Yeah.

Oh, oh, I mean, without a doubt, he that was also something that just kept me kept me going with the story for the first couple years anyway, was just this, this, this sense that that, okay, I was dealing with somebody who was

A very complicated person with a lot of, a lot of sides and a lot of complexity.