Sean Carroll

Well, I know when it comes to exploring outer space, most of the heavy lifting is actually done by robots and autonomous vehicles, but there's also some romance and something personally important to having human beings up there. I presume it's a similar story with the oceans. I mean, do you think we should have more emphasis on human beings or less emphasis on human beings?

All right. Well, having given the human beings their due, we can now do the fun part, which is talk about the physics of what is going on here. You provocatively named your book The Blue Machine. And this is, again, very compatible with the idea that things are changing over time, that it's not just a static thing. What are the drivers of this change?

All right. Well, having given the human beings their due, we can now do the fun part, which is talk about the physics of what is going on here. You provocatively named your book The Blue Machine. And this is, again, very compatible with the idea that things are changing over time, that it's not just a static thing. What are the drivers of this change?

I presume that sunlight is one of them, wind is one of them. Is this something that we can sensibly make a list of? Yeah.

I presume that sunlight is one of them, wind is one of them. Is this something that we can sensibly make a list of? Yeah.

Well, it's a great segue into the fact that we haven't really talked enough about the biology that is going on down there in the oceans. I presume there is a lot of it. I don't have any good handle on how much we know about the biomass, how it's distributed, the various networks that keep it alive.

Well, it's a great segue into the fact that we haven't really talked enough about the biology that is going on down there in the oceans. I presume there is a lot of it. I don't have any good handle on how much we know about the biomass, how it's distributed, the various networks that keep it alive.

I see. Okay.

I see. Okay.

That's what I was just going to follow up on. I mean, here on land, we certainly have deserts and rainforests, right? We have places where life absolutely flourishes and places where it struggles. Is there life everywhere in the ocean? Or are there some places where it's happier?

That's what I was just going to follow up on. I mean, here on land, we certainly have deserts and rainforests, right? We have places where life absolutely flourishes and places where it struggles. Is there life everywhere in the ocean? Or are there some places where it's happier?

There is a feeling in reading your book that a lot of it, especially the early parts of your book, are less about what the oceans are like and what they used to be like before we human beings came in and started messing with them. How much have we messed with the oceans? What is the human impact there? I kind of know what you're going to say, but you know a bit more specifically than I do.

There is a feeling in reading your book that a lot of it, especially the early parts of your book, are less about what the oceans are like and what they used to be like before we human beings came in and started messing with them. How much have we messed with the oceans? What is the human impact there? I kind of know what you're going to say, but you know a bit more specifically than I do.

I mean, are we taking enough action? Are we headed in the right direction, do you think?

I mean, are we taking enough action? Are we headed in the right direction, do you think?

I don't know if you know Hannah Ritchie, but she was a former guest on the podcast talking exactly about this issue, that on the one hand, you have to be clear in terms of communication that when it comes to the environment, climate change, things like that, things are very bad, but they're not hopeless. There are things we can do.

I don't know if you know Hannah Ritchie, but she was a former guest on the podcast talking exactly about this issue, that on the one hand, you have to be clear in terms of communication that when it comes to the environment, climate change, things like that, things are very bad, but they're not hopeless. There are things we can do.

And, you know, it's a fine line to walk because people don't want to hear two messages that sound like they're not completely compatible with each other. They're willing to hear one or the other. And sometimes the world is a little subtler than that.

And, you know, it's a fine line to walk because people don't want to hear two messages that sound like they're not completely compatible with each other. They're willing to hear one or the other. And sometimes the world is a little subtler than that.

Maybe to wrap up, rather than thinking about saving the planet or the oceans, we can be more specific and think about ocean science and its prospects. What do we need? What are the things that you would prioritize if you were the emperor of the world and you could allocate all that money to studying the ocean better?