Shankar Vedantam

What do you think is happening there if you're a painter or a poet or a musician?

You've also said that IQ tests fail to capture the full range of human potential in that they focus on the explicit, the conscious, the controlled forms of thinking.

What does this leave out, Scott?

Solving puzzles involves logic and analysis, but logic cannot help you read someone's expression in a crowded room.

That requires cognitive skills that are often learned unconsciously.

Scott is not merely saying that the cognitive ability that IQ tests measure is different than the abilities that allow us to apprehend unwritten patterns and relationships in the real world.

He's saying that sometimes these different cognitive abilities might come at the expense of each other.

And in some ways, it complicates the notion of how we think about people, right?

We think about smart people as always being smart, dull people always being dull.

And what you're doing partly with sort of this 2E label is basically saying, no, people are more complicated than that.

So the story that has stuck with me, I think, through this whole episode is the one that you told me about the school psychologist who looked at your IQ test and showed you where you fell on the bell curve of intelligence and started with the gifted and moved the pencil over and over and over to the left and then to the left and then more to the left.

That moment was really crushing for you in all kinds of ways.

But some years ago, you had an extraordinary experience.

You were walking in a park in Philadelphia, and you came by an elderly man sitting on a park bench.

Set the scene for me and tell me that story, Scott.

Psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman studies the science of human potential.

He's the author of Rise Above, Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential.

Scott, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

Do you have a follow-up question for Scott Barry Kaufman or a story related to this episode?

If you'd be willing to share your question or story with a Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone.