Shaparak Khorsandi

I've got a teenage boy who was very into politics. OK.

Her big boy.

And he's only nine.

Wow.

But they're quite sensible at that age.

You sound like Catherine. I sound like a mother.

Because he was in charge of the castle kitchens. Like a sort of Brooklyn Beckham type guy, is he?

Oh, well, we all do. Yeah, of course. He just is king of Poland. I've been king of Poland.

It is.

Really quite something. I don't know how any of them can be bothered. Wouldn't you, if you had all that money, just sit somewhere quietly and chill? Yeah. Just breed puppies. Wow. I know. But the thing is with Catherine is she was so alone in the world. Absolutely. Clearly had massive attachment issues. And everyone that was like related to her by blood, she lost everything.

So it does feel that the only way she had to even feel alive is to be powerful.

That's the only way she... Like a lot of very famous people that are bereft of unconditional love, they feel power is the only thing that will sate them. And as we all know, that always leads to disaster.

It does. It does.

I have so enjoyed, Estelle, your passion for her. Thank you. It's been lovely. And you've made me like her, too.

Thank you so much.

Hello. Thank you for having me back. And I tell you what, my ADHD is no joke. When you were introducing Estelle, for a moment, I thought I'm a professor. I was like, yes, these are my achievements. I am an expert and read my book, Blood, Fire and Gold, which is brilliant, but I can't remember writing it because that's how intelligent I am.

It all went through that genuinely, Estelle. I was like, yes, this is me. That's brilliant.

I thought I knew her a bit, but then I was told yesterday by my history-obsessed partner, Mark Steele, that it's Catherine de' Medici and not de' Medicini. I thought that that was the way it was pronounced and that she was Italian. And there we go.

Yes, all I know about them is that they weren't royals. They didn't have blue blood, but they were fantastically wealthy, which gave them status.

They were good people.

Is giving him a title. That he wasn't his to give.

It's like stealing a dress from your neighbor and giving it to your wife. Yeah.

Yeah. You need to go and fight the neighbor.

Oh, you know what, I'd like to think that he gives her some money for her independence, self-defence classes, but I've got a horrible feeling that perhaps some bozo is found... Is that am I right?

Some bozos found to marry her too. Oh, I wish I was wrong. No, don't wish you were wrong.

Between us and anyone listening, it's also the age my grandmother got married.

We didn't call Celia the bob-haired bandit. We called Celia Grandma.

Another person on her side that died.

Oh, that's adorable.

That blows my mind that like Catherine and Mary Connors got hung out.

Yes.

No.

My knowledge of history is so Swiss to cheese that I would have thought Nostradamus was, like, a few centuries before.

To be fair, I would have thought the same if I didn't know.

Yeah. Imagine that, wandering around. Oi! Let's go have a cup of tea. I wonder what she called him for short.

No.

Oh, wow. That is surprisingly creepy. But I don't think it is. He'd sit on her lap.

With a bib in it and she's maybe feeding him some mashed up banana.

If you say to your husband, right, darling, it's tonight. I've just drunk a pint of donkey urine. I don't know how much of a turn on that would be anyway. No, even for a French man. Yeah.

Estelle, you can say that I can't. I just really enjoyed that.

I have to justify why I said Dan, because if Henri becomes king... True. She's elevated.

But I think she'd want it more than Catherine. But do you... Ooh. That's what I thought. That's where my head went.

Hello. Thank you for having me back. And I tell you what, my ADHD is no joke. When you were introducing Estelle, for a moment, I thought I'm a professor. I was like, yes, these are my achievements. I am an expert and read my book, Blood, Fire and Gold, which is brilliant, but I can't remember writing it because that's how intelligent I am.

Oh my God, I love this. Yeah, I thought she wanted that. Catherine's just concerned about having a baby and being seen.

Yeah, he takes the fall.

I imagine humanely sniffing lavender and gently tickled whilst being given a dose of something that will knock him out in two seconds.

You know, that was my first thought. But I thought, I'm going to be optimistic.

Would it have been in Diane's interest for Catherine to be executed and got rid of? Or as a courtesan, does that not really affect her? Let's talk about this because I don't think it did.

It all went through that genuinely, Estelle. I was like, yes, this is me. That's brilliant.

Another person on her side that died.

And also Henry's growing up a bit and he's probably stopped sitting on her lap by now.

I thought I knew her a bit, but then I was told yesterday by my history-obsessed partner, Mark Steele, that it's Catherine de' Medici and not de' Medicini. I thought that that was the way it was pronounced and that she was Italian. And there we go.

Yeah, but she's going to die way later. What a dumbass. Is that all right to say? I mean, you know, I'm all for women, but come on. Yeah, she's always not... I don't like Diane.

Oh, that's adorable.

That blows my mind that Catherine and Mary could have just got hung out.

Even with her son's new wife, Catherine was kind of pushed out.

Yes, you can put it that way.

Yes.

No.

My knowledge of history is so Swiss to cheese that I would have thought Nostradamus was like a few centuries before.

To be fair, I would have thought the same if I didn't know.

Yeah. Imagine that, wandering around. Oi, Nostradamus, can I have a cup of tea? I wonder what she called him for short. Nostri?

I think it might. Does it involve horses again?

Yes. That happened to me once. Oh, ooh. Yeah, this queen. Right, no, I didn't know, but I once had a letter of apology from someone who was really horrific to me once they'd been... lost their power.

And she took it back. I'm so glad she took it back. Tell me the name of the castle again. Chenonceau. Don't judge my writing of French. ...

I've got a teenage boy who is very into politics.

Her big boy.

And he's only nine.

Wow.

But they're quite sensible at that age.

I'm very sad now.

I'm going to write in my notebook, sad now.

Was it winged monkeys? OK, so they definitely didn't have planes.

OK, did they have pigeons?

Carrier pigeons or maybe hawks.

Is it a bird of prey? It is a good idea.

Oh.

Oh, they're women?

Oh, wow.

Yes. All I know about them is that they weren't royals. They didn't have blue blood, but they were fantastically wealthy, which gave them status.

Because he was in charge of the castle kitchens. Like a sort of Brooklyn Beckham type guy, is he?

Oh, well, we all do. Yeah, of course. Just as king of Poland. I've been king of Poland.

Good people.

I don't, but it really seems to me, given the times, this was a literal dangling. Who could it have been back then?

I don't know. Red hair? Oh, it's not... I know red hair, is it? It's not Joan of Arc, is it? No. No, is it Queen Elizabeth I?

Oh, yes.

Yes.

So she was quite a lot older than Hercule.

We've all had mornings like that.

Really quite something. I don't know how any of them can be bothered. Wouldn't you, if you had all that money, just sit somewhere quietly and chill?

Do some gardening.

Yeah. Just breed puppies. Wow. I know. You know, but the thing is with Catherine is she was so alone in the world. Absolutely. She clearly had massive attachment issues. Yeah. And everyone that was related to her by blood, she lost. So it does feel that the only way she had to even feel alive is to be powerful. That's the only way she would.

I think I do. No, not like them. You need smelling salts.

Like a lot of very famous people that are bereft of unconditional love, they feel power is the only thing that will sate them. And as we all know, that always leads to disaster. Yes, it does. It does.

I shall never bring them into a conversation about Catherine again.

That was really beautiful. I have so enjoyed, Estelle, your passion for her. Thank you. It's been lovely. And you've made me like her too. I'm so happy.

I remember Ocule.

They dipped some boobs in wine and drank it.

Diane de Poitiers was Henri, who was Catherine's husband's mistress. Very good. Well done. Are you seeing this? Not to be confused with Sidney Poitiers.

Yes. Margaret.

Her flying squadron were allegedly beautiful women sent out to hoodwink men into giving them info.

something... St Bartholomew's Day.

Geezers.

I've been waiting to say the geezers.

It was the mother of France. The mother of the country? Yeah, queen, yeah.

We love mother of France. Yeah, giving you 10.

That's the best I've ever done in any exam ever.

Do you know what? This has been so fascinating. I've really, really enjoyed this and I'm going to buy your book the minute I leave this studio. Wow.

That he, it wasn't his to give.

It's like stealing a dress from your neighbour and giving it to your wife. Yeah.

Thank you so much. It's been fab.

Yeah, you now need to go and fight the neighbour.

So they didn't just meet in a bar, fall in love and have this lovely... No. That's a shame.

And quite unusual for the time.

So when you see a story like Katerin's put on Netflix and portrayed as this mean, scheming person, but you, as a historian, no different. What do you want to say to Netflix?

Oh, you know what? I'd like to think that he gives her some money for her independence and self-defense classes. But I've got a horrible feeling that perhaps some bozo is found. Is that am I right?

Some bozos found to marry her too. Oh, I wish I was wrong.

But Estelle, at 14, I was in love with the drawing of Morton Harker.

Between us and anyone listening, it's also the age my grandmother got married. OK, all right. So only a few centuries. Anyway.

for the guests. I would love that. Maybe a merry-go-round. Great. And those orbs, those orbs that you go into. Oh, the zorbing, yeah. Yeah, zorbing, and you roll around in. Great. Yeah, am I right? Am I close?

I mean, Sheffield was not that shocked.

Well, you did sort of preface it with be fair to the crowd. So this was at the actual wedding ceremony, not a stag do.

I'm just kind of thinking about this 14-year-old lad who's gone to bed with his brand new wife. like, waited for her to fall asleep and then tiptoed out again to, like, lick wine off someone's nip-nips. You know what? I think it happened.

I'm going to do that when I next get married.

No.

Okay, so why don't I just name that?

It's funny how they don't learn these royals. Just let your children marry who they want.

Also, Catherine's got no way to combat this woman because this woman's got 20 years on her. It's going to get worse. Oh!