Sharon Brett-Kelly

Hi, I'm Sharon Brett-Kelly and I'm at the Maidment Theatre or the site of the Maidment Theatre at Auckland University where nearly 50 years ago something extraordinary took place. It's all quiet here now, no students and of course the theatre's all gone but imagine six of the country's worst criminals getting into a fierce face-off and it was all above board, even celebrated. Why here? Well,

That's what today's detail is all about. Their trip alone from the prison to the maidment was eventful enough. But add in the ex-head of a top-notch private school and a future deputy prime minister and things get even spicier. You'll hear Sir Don McKinnon's take on events later. But right now, I'm off to meet drug dealer turned criminologist Greg Newbold at his home in

to hear his version of events, a story he's told in his new memoir. We're talking about Paremoremo Debating Club and my first question to Greg, who was in the two teams?

What was the atmosphere like at this venue, at the Queen's Arcade? I was so surprised to read this excerpt from your book that a bunch of prisoners from the maximum security prison were allowed out to this event in Queen Street.

But on the other hand, I felt also, well, if I can contribute something, it's a good cause or a good community cause. I didn't think it would go much beyond that. You've written about the night at the Maidment Theatre when it was the Paremoremo A team versus the Paremoremo B team in the finals of the Auckland Debating Association's annual debate. Can you tell me about that?

to finding more acceptance as to what they were achieving. Now, you'd think a van full of hardened criminals would head straight to the venue under strict guard. But no, they went to the house of the ex-Kings College principal, Jeff Greenbank.

I find that sort of a little bit hard to tally with these people who had done the worst things that you could possibly imagine.

You know, that then they create this feel-good atmosphere and that others who had done equally bad things were also feeling good for them. I mean, you know, it's really hard for me to get a grip on that. What I found was when I was in jail is that the guys I knew in jail were different people on the outside because in that jail there were only 48 in each cell block. We all knew each other intimately.

When you left, you were quite sad about leaving. Yeah. It's hard to believe, really, that you'd feel sad about leaving the maximum security prison. I'd made such good friends, you know. But was it, I mean, you make it sound so warm and fuzzy and fluffy. It was. But how could it be? How could it be? There were guys I, you know, I just liked so much and they all came, gave me presents, you know. Bloody hell, you know, it was amazing.

And prisons today, because you're still quite connected writing about justice system. Yeah, well I've retired now but I've still got several inmates writing to me. Have you? Yeah. So how does it compare? I mean are prisons more disciplined when it comes to things like letting in drugs and also behaviour within the prison system?

That's it for today. The Detail is a Newsroom production supported by RNZ and New Zealand On Air. Today's episode was produced by Gwen McClure and engineered by Rangi Poek. Thanks to Sir Don McKinnon and Greg Newbold, whose memoir is called Dream Dealer. I'm Sharon Brett-Kelley. Mā te wā.