Sheriff Donna Buckley
Appearances
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
We don't have less sick people. We actually have more sick people.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
COVID did a number on our youth, and we're starting to see that as they become adults. Our world is a very mean, cruel, tough place to live, full of anxiety. It's full of damages from social media. We're seeing people struggling that would never be in that category before.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So I look at the work that we do here in sort of three spaces. We have a really robust youth program. We work with both sort of mainstream youth as well as at-risk youth. We do it through a summer program. We do it through school vacation weeks.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Because if we can build and develop relationships with kids, especially kids who are at risk, and keep those relationships going, maybe it's less likely they spiral into the system. Then we look at the work that we do while we have people in our custody. The age-old choice is they can sit here and do their time, and then we let them out, and we've met our responsibility.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
But we know that doesn't make us safe. So we look at the work that we do here is to try to figure out individually, what does each person need? Do they need education? Do they need vocational training? Do they need medical and mental health services? Do they need addiction treatment? Do they need a combination of all of those things? And we start that work the day they walk in the door here.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Well, thank you for having me. Important conversations.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
And then the third place that we are trying to impact public safety is when people are released. So actually just last Friday, we opened, it's called the Bridge Center. Understanding that the most consequential thing that we do at the sheriff's office is let someone out. Because that is the place where they're either going to move into the positive territory or revert back to negative behavior.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
And there's a victim. There's victims. There's harm that results if people revert back to negative behavior. So we have to figure out how to support people post-release, from the minute they walk out the door, when they are at their most vulnerable. And our community is at its most vulnerable when someone is released.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So the Bridge Center is a one-stop shop, an opportunity for us to tie together all of the amazing resources that exist in our community. All that the person being released needs to know is they need to go one place. Do they need help with a job? Do they need help with housing? Do they need food? Do they need transportation? Do they need mentors? Do they need to go to a meeting?
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Do they need a support group? And there's community partners who have been knocking on our door wanting to work with us in this space. Now we have actually a physical facility that brings all of this together. It's impossible for someone like me to navigate all of the services that we have. I don't know about all of them.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Imagine if you're the person getting out of jail who doesn't many times append it to your name, may not even have a ride. That's all the work we try to do while people are here, but you've got to sustain it.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Oh. So you refer to the staff?
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
I'm going to knock on wood, but the staff that work here are phenomenal. Maybe it's because I spent the majority of my time working with employees and understanding that, first of all, you can never take them for granted. And change, people have to be brought along. You don't force change on people. So we talked a lot. Everyone who worked here knew how I got elected and why I got elected.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
It's sort of a nontraditional path to being sheriff. I've spent my entire career as an attorney. And in 2018, I accepted a job as general counsel for the Barnstable County Sheriff's Office. In that position, I had an opportunity to see both what was happening inside the sheriff's office, as well as be part of one of the major criminal justice reform legislations that was passed in Massachusetts.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
It was a very clear option A, option B campaign. So there was no question about what I was sent here to do. And ultimately, we worked for the taxpayers. So I think having a clear vision, having a clear understanding, and bringing them along with conversation, with the changes.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
making sure that their needs are met, they have all the information, and that their, first and foremost, especially in this work, their safety is paramount. Safety of the people who are incarcerated is paramount. Helping get to a point where we understand that we don't just do security. That's not why we exist, because that doesn't make us safer.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
We do security so that we can do all of the other work. And it's been amazing. It's been absolutely transformative here.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
It did not. I mean, it was a system that was grounded in a very different philosophy. You brought up earlier the forward-facing law enforcement patrol. This sheriff's office before I became sheriff was very much interested in that area. So it was a very different philosophy. We're actually doing a presentation next month for the AJA, American Jail Association, on something from nothing.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So one of the examples of that is when I came on, we housed women, but we didn't have any women's programming. So we developed from nothing women's programming, a women's therapeutic treatment program, which is designed to treat women. Women are offenders, but women are also victims. And women are also caretakers. One day we did a statistic. We had 95 women who had 109 children.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
But you think about the collateral consequences to our public safety in the community when those women are incarcerated. Start to talk about generational incarceration because now those kids think incarceration is part of their future because that's what my mom did. That's what, you know, that's what's in my family. So we decided to work with focus programs specifically for women.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
And it came from nothing.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Can you give me a minute? Because I'm going to read you something that I received last week. Is that okay? Sure. All right. Hang on one second.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
All right. So last week, I received a really long letter from a woman who went through our treatment program, women's treatment program. I'm not going to read the whole thing. So she goes through and she thanks all of the different staff that she interact with. I'll read you this part. My family has made jokes that I came out of jail with friends, and that is true.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
I am still in touch with a few inmates, both current and released. Once I'm finished with parole, I'm hoping to see them in person. One thing I found out, the transition back into a normal life has not been as easy as I thought it would be. I have mentioned this to several people. including my parole and probation ladies. I'm skipping parts.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
It would be nice if there was some kind of a group for released inmates that just deals with transitioning back to life outside of jail. From finding a job to mental health, there's a five-month wait for therapy. To financial and credit health and to taking care of your physical health, there's a lot to think about and do. For me, there are days when it's hard to get motivated.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
I said to someone I could see why some people fall back into bad habits. Luckily, I did not have a drug and alcohol issue, and I have a family that's there to support me. But it's still a tough road some days. So I truly just want to say thank you for making what could have been a real nightmare for me much more bearable.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
When people ask me what jail was like, they are surprised when I say it could have been much worse or it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I used my time wisely and came out with a plan and with several books ready to go. I hope you continue your support of the women's program, and if I can ever be of help, please let me know.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Would you consider a program for released inmates I would be in even if I have to travel? So that's her words. Another example, we had someone who has been in custody in Barnstable County for the majority of his adult life, and he's probably in his 50s or 60s. He was here when I was here as general counsel. He was here when I came in as sheriff.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
in 2018 and think about, you know, sort of how that was going to be implemented, what other sheriff's offices were doing and what we were doing. And so through that work, lots of discussion about recidivism, lots of discussion about mental health and addiction being the primary reason that people are in jail. And when the current sheriff indicated that he was going to retire,
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
But through the work that we did, sort of refocusing instead of just housing that person, we worked with the Department of Mental Health. And it wasn't easy, but we were finally able, even though he was a client of the Department of Mental Health, they kept denying him services. So what we were able to do was to figure out, you know, how are we going to house this person?
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Anyway, the person had housing. The person finally had support and stayed out of here for the longest time ever. Found himself back here recently, but then those charges were dismissed. But the behavior, this person was a high-maintenance person, self-injurious, but that behavior didn't exist the last time they came back. And when the charges were dismissed— They had a stable place to go back to.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So that's the kind of stuff that we see all the time, but we're working on it.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Well, thank you. I, as you can tell, am passionate about this. I believe as a sheriff, our job is public safety. And the best way to keep the public safe is to make sure that when people leave our jails, they don't come back. Public isn't their next victim. That's why we do what we do.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Do the work here to make sure that the people in our community are safe, that no one is their next victim, and that we're not this revolving door.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Thank you so much. Good luck with your show. And if you ever want to talk some more or if you're ever out in Massachusetts and you want to come visit us, let us know.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
there was only one candidate who stepped forward.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
And that candidate didn't, in my view, seem to share the priorities that were necessary to address what was happening in the criminal justice system, which was the prevalence of addiction and mental health in people who are incarcerated and a lack of recognition for the fact that a lack of services, pre-incarceration, pre-criminal behavior is what led a lot of people to spiral into the criminal justice system.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So it was one of those put up or shut up moments where, you know, you can't complain about the way things are going if you're not willing to do something. And I was at a point in my life where it's like, you know what? I have a responsibility to have a conversation with the community about what we could be doing at the sheriff's office, especially in relation to incarceration.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So I ran with the purpose of having that conversation and giving people an option. Other sheriff's offices in Massachusetts and throughout the state were realizing that we needed to not just lock people up and then let them out when their time's up. So we had the conversation and upset of upsets, I won.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Well, here, no, actually, I spent my career before I came to the sheriff's office representing public employees. So I represented police officers, firefighters, public school educators. So I actually sat on the employee side of the table for probably 90% of my career. But I will say this, no matter what side of the table you're on, It is the employees who do the work.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
And unless we support them and value the work that we do, we can't provide the services that we need to provide.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
It is, and it's interesting as you talk to sheriffs throughout the country because actually even within the state, each of us is different, which is the beauty of the office. So in Barnstable, we run the jail, which includes lockups, so pre-arraignment, pre-trial, and sentence. We house both males and females.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
We run a Bureau of Criminal Investigation, which is crime scene investigations, which supports the police departments throughout Barnstable County. We run an emergency 911 communication center, which provides emergency communications for most of the towns in Barnstable County. And we are a significant member of the Regional Law Enforcement Council.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So we provide, we have a canine unit, we have a drone unit, we have SWAT units. people who participate in SWAT and hostage negotiation and search and rescue, human trafficking. So we work side by side with the local police departments. But in Barnstable County, there is no need for us to also be police patrol officers because every town has their own police department.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So for us to do that work, which we could, but for us to do that, it would be redundant. And I don't think a good use of taxpayer money.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
You know, that would be the ideal. If we didn't have to incarcerate people, that would certainly be ideal. But there's so many factors that we need to think about, you know, in the reality that we live today. First of all, the lack of mental health and addiction services that exist right now is one of the reasons why we have people spiraling into jail, because we have no place else to put them.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
That's a tragedy. It's a tragedy because people who, especially people who are having a mental health crisis, it's not a surprise that they act unlawfully. But we don't have the infrastructure left because we closed all of the residential treatment facilities back in the 80s. We don't have the beds or the providers to provide that service in advance to prevent someone from getting into a crisis.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So I frequently say our jails, not just mine, but the jails in Massachusetts, the jails across the country, are de facto mental health and addiction treatment.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Now, that said, if we had the appropriate infrastructure to keep people supported who need support, they've committed crimes, they need something more than just go off and don't do it again. If we had those infrastructures in place, then ideally we could not put people in jail. Although there are also circumstances where people need a timeout. They need to be separated from the community.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
They need the time to understand what they did, be held accountable, and figure out what the next chapter looks like. So I think in Massachusetts right now, what we're seeing is that our sheriffs are remarkably, amazingly filling two needs. One, we are keeping people in custody who need to be in custody.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
For those people who there is no other option, people that are here, we are providing the medical and mental health services. We are providing the supports. We are giving people the tools or starting that work. And I can speak for myself here, but I know there are other sheriff's offices as well who are understanding that that work is a continuum.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
It doesn't just happen while people are incarcerated. It has to continue post-release. As sheriffs, we have the infrastructure because we have them within our facilities. So we are able to seamlessly provide that support post-release. And we have seen some amazing examples of that working, especially for people with mental health challenges.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
I don't think you're missing it. I think that... I've had conversations with legislators about the fact that there are physical facilities that need to be in place, provide services for people, especially for mental health services. And it's a non-starter.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
While everybody will pay lip service to the fact that it was the worst public policy decision in the history of the world to close all the residential mental health facilities, nobody is willing to step forward and say we need new ones. So I'm not giving up on that conversation.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Not only do we need facilities for people to be safe and for the public to be safe that are not jails, but we also need services. We need access to providers. You know, in Barnesville County right now, our, quote, access for people who don't have the ability to private pay their way through, three to six to nine months to see someone. That's not access. And financially, insurance is a huge issue.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So there's so many places along the spectrum that this is broken. But at the same time, I can speak for myself as sheriff and say I'm not waiting. I'm not willing to write people off until we get this system straightened out. So we have stepped forward here in Barnstable. We parted ways with a private medical and mental health vendor and brought our own staff inside. We are ready.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
retraining our staff. They're all trained in mental health first aid. They're trained in cognitive behavioral therapy. We're working specifically on increasing the ability of our staff to interact with the populations that we have.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
We're going to be hosting in September a training that includes a focus on autism and a focus on correctional behavioral health workers because that's the job we're asking them to do. So we have to train them for that. We're seeing success, and maybe if the answer to the question that you have is that we rethink
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
I don't think the jail facility itself is the best place to hold people, but if the work that we can do is checking off all the boxes, then that's a good thing.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So you are 100% right. I'll talk specifically about Barnstable. One of the things that we instituted when I became sheriff in January of 2023 was a case management model. So now every person who's in our facility has a case manager and everyone has an assessment. That helps us figure out placement. It helps us figure out classification.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
We also, as a rule, have a separate housing unit for, I call them high-profile, more serious types of cases. That's not part of a general population unit. And then we really do our best to meet people where they're at, whether it's an orientation unit or a programming unit or different levels of programming or special management.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
We are making sure that we are not putting people in worse positions through the experience of coming through the jail. So that is a primary effort on our part. I don't know. The model that you described to me is sort of that stereotypical state prison model where, you know... Everybody's here and everybody's got to figure it out. That is not how we operate.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
So we actually call them corrections officers.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
Those are the security staff who work in-house. And actually, that's who I was referring to when I talked about who we are training to deal with the population. So mental health first aid was the first thing that we did. We've already put one cohort through and we're working on the rest to make sure all of our staff have cognitive behavioral therapy training. We're going to be hosting.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
It is correctional behavioral health training and certification so that we'll be hosting that in the fall. You know, we're asking people who are signing up to be security officers to be medical and mental health workers at the same time. And what's interesting is that a lot of people are interested in that job. We are getting a lot of people.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
It used to be, I'll be a correction officer until I can get hired as a police officer. That's not the track anymore. We are getting people with social work backgrounds, with human service backgrounds, who want to come in and make a difference. The difference that they're making is in public safety. Because
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
we are able to impact people while we have them, the better shot they have in the outside and the better we can deliver on public safety and reduce recidivism.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
It's what we, yes, it's what we need to be doing. And the only physical facilities, unfortunately, that we have are jails.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion
You know, the number of beds, I think right now, hang on one second, I have a statistic for you. In 1999, we had 1,170 beds. Today, we have less than 700.