Steph McGovern

I mean, to be clear, she is an opponent of growth for growth's sake.

Her idea is you have to remake markets...

So that when we get economic growth, and plainly in a country like the UK, we haven't got enough, it benefits the vast majority rather than the spoils simply going to a very small number of people.

And we recently talked to Gabriel Zuckman about the proliferation of billionaires and how they don't pay their fair share.

Her...

big idea is that you restructure markets so government isn't about fixing things when markets go wrong it is about making sure that markets deliver better more beneficial outcomes in the first place most economists do not get their hands dirty in the way that mariana does and that's why i think we have to take her seriously and here is our interview with her

Probably the biggest theme

in politics since the financial crisis is how the way that countries like the UK, economies operate in countries like the UK, operate for the benefit of a very small number of people.

And one of the reasons we've seen the rise of particularly right-wing populist parties is this sense, particularly among those on lower incomes, that the economy doesn't work

So is this, in your view, a book that would help to correct that?

There are many politicians who think that their only mission at the moment is to fight back against populism.

Is that in your mind at all?

So can I just – I obviously don't want to dwell on the Inflation Reduction Act and Biden for the entire episode, but can I just ask you one question about the benefits that went to those states that then ultimately voted for Trump?

Now, one of the most striking –

uh features of that election that trump won was there was a lot of data actually that living standards were improving in the us under biden but there was this so-called vibes thing where people didn't feel it and they didn't believe it right so can i just but can i just ask therefore on the reds on the on on the issue of the republic the states that voted republican was it a vibes problem that people didn't get that they were actually being helped or were they or was it actually steph's point

that in the end, although the investment happened, in fact, the living standards for the relevant people didn't rise.

So one of the most interesting things about the book and about your argument is that you talk about how process matters.

And I don't mean process in a very boring sense.

It is that, you know, if you have a mission...

Who engages in delivery, what rewards they get, how they themselves feel as owners of the thing matters.