Stephen Dubner

Okay, so you and others moved experiments out of the lab and into the real world, but have you been able to successfully translate those experimental findings into, let's say, good policy?

The way List sees it, academics like him work hard to come up with evidence for some intervention that's supposed to help alleviate poverty or improve education, to help people quit smoking or take their blood pressure medicine. The academic then writes up their paper for an incredibly impressive-looking academic journal, impressive at least to fellow academics.

The way List sees it, academics like him work hard to come up with evidence for some intervention that's supposed to help alleviate poverty or improve education, to help people quit smoking or take their blood pressure medicine. The academic then writes up their paper for an incredibly impressive-looking academic journal, impressive at least to fellow academics.

The way List sees it, academics like him work hard to come up with evidence for some intervention that's supposed to help alleviate poverty or improve education, to help people quit smoking or take their blood pressure medicine. The academic then writes up their paper for an incredibly impressive-looking academic journal, impressive at least to fellow academics.

To the rest of us, it's jargony and indecipherable. But then, with paper in hand, the academic goes out proselytizing to policymakers. He might say, you politicians always talk about making evidence-based policy. Well, here's some new evidence for an effective and cost-effective way of addressing that problem you say you care so much about.

To the rest of us, it's jargony and indecipherable. But then, with paper in hand, the academic goes out proselytizing to policymakers. He might say, you politicians always talk about making evidence-based policy. Well, here's some new evidence for an effective and cost-effective way of addressing that problem you say you care so much about.

To the rest of us, it's jargony and indecipherable. But then, with paper in hand, the academic goes out proselytizing to policymakers. He might say, you politicians always talk about making evidence-based policy. Well, here's some new evidence for an effective and cost-effective way of addressing that problem you say you care so much about.

And then the policymaker may say, well, the last time we listened to an academic like you, we did just what they told us, but it didn't work. And it cost three times what they said it would. And we got hammered in the press. And here's the thing. The politician and the academic may both be right. John List has seen this from both sides now.

And then the policymaker may say, well, the last time we listened to an academic like you, we did just what they told us, but it didn't work. And it cost three times what they said it would. And we got hammered in the press. And here's the thing. The politician and the academic may both be right. John List has seen this from both sides now.

And then the policymaker may say, well, the last time we listened to an academic like you, we did just what they told us, but it didn't work. And it cost three times what they said it would. And we got hammered in the press. And here's the thing. The politician and the academic may both be right. John List has seen this from both sides now.

This was in the early 2000s under George W. Bush.

This was in the early 2000s under George W. Bush.

This was in the early 2000s under George W. Bush.

Because the intentions are obviously good. For instance, improving literacy for grade schoolers or helping low-income high schoolers get to college.

Because the intentions are obviously good. For instance, improving literacy for grade schoolers or helping low-income high schoolers get to college.

Because the intentions are obviously good. For instance, improving literacy for grade schoolers or helping low-income high schoolers get to college.

It's just a travesty. List has firsthand experience with the failure to scale.

It's just a travesty. List has firsthand experience with the failure to scale.

It's just a travesty. List has firsthand experience with the failure to scale.

Wow. If you had asked me to guess all the ways that a program like that could fail, it would have taken me a while to guess that you simply didn't get parental uptake.