Stephen Dubner

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Stephen Dubner.

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Stephen Dubner.

If we could just talk about your path to this moment, this place, how did you become a scholar of failure, if I may be so bold as to call you so?

If we could just talk about your path to this moment, this place, how did you become a scholar of failure, if I may be so bold as to call you so?

If we could just talk about your path to this moment, this place, how did you become a scholar of failure, if I may be so bold as to call you so?

That, again, is the organizational psychologist Amy Edmondson. She recently published a book called Right Kind of Wrong, The Science of Failing Well. She understands this is a hard sell.

That, again, is the organizational psychologist Amy Edmondson. She recently published a book called Right Kind of Wrong, The Science of Failing Well. She understands this is a hard sell.

That, again, is the organizational psychologist Amy Edmondson. She recently published a book called Right Kind of Wrong, The Science of Failing Well. She understands this is a hard sell.

You write that there are three reasons why most of us fail at failure. Aversion, confusion, and fear. I'd like you to walk us through each of those and say how they contribute to failure.

You write that there are three reasons why most of us fail at failure. Aversion, confusion, and fear. I'd like you to walk us through each of those and say how they contribute to failure.

You write that there are three reasons why most of us fail at failure. Aversion, confusion, and fear. I'd like you to walk us through each of those and say how they contribute to failure.

Wow. So in other words, in every strand of our lives, right, the social, the internal, we have the capacity to fail. I mean, we're really good at failing, you're saying.

Wow. So in other words, in every strand of our lives, right, the social, the internal, we have the capacity to fail. I mean, we're really good at failing, you're saying.

Wow. So in other words, in every strand of our lives, right, the social, the internal, we have the capacity to fail. I mean, we're really good at failing, you're saying.

There have been plenty of efforts to rebrand failure. You can see this by simply scrolling through the titles of popular TED Talks. Smart Failure for a Fast-Changing World. How Failure Cultivates Resilience, The Unexpected Benefit of Celebrating Failure. Embracing failure is a particularly popular idea in Silicon Valley.

There have been plenty of efforts to rebrand failure. You can see this by simply scrolling through the titles of popular TED Talks. Smart Failure for a Fast-Changing World. How Failure Cultivates Resilience, The Unexpected Benefit of Celebrating Failure. Embracing failure is a particularly popular idea in Silicon Valley.

There have been plenty of efforts to rebrand failure. You can see this by simply scrolling through the titles of popular TED Talks. Smart Failure for a Fast-Changing World. How Failure Cultivates Resilience, The Unexpected Benefit of Celebrating Failure. Embracing failure is a particularly popular idea in Silicon Valley.

Although, interestingly, you never hear about it from people who are in the midst of a failure. You hear about it after the fact from people who have succeeded wildly. Here's Mark Zuckerberg from a commencement speech at Harvard in 2017.

Although, interestingly, you never hear about it from people who are in the midst of a failure. You hear about it after the fact from people who have succeeded wildly. Here's Mark Zuckerberg from a commencement speech at Harvard in 2017.

Although, interestingly, you never hear about it from people who are in the midst of a failure. You hear about it after the fact from people who have succeeded wildly. Here's Mark Zuckerberg from a commencement speech at Harvard in 2017.