Steven Pressfield

I mean, if you think about Larry Bird and Magic Johnson,

You know, how they kind of made each other, you know, boom, boom, boom.

And now they're the best of friends.

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates early on.

Was that true?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I think so too.

You know, my trainer at the gym, T.R.

Goodman, he's trained a lot of professional athletes, particularly hockey players.

And a lot of them, he says, because he got to know them very well,

really had a chip on their shoulder about something or other, like, my dad, I'm going to show my fucking dad that I can do this thing, you know?

And it would drive them.

But, like you say, it becomes kind of toxic at some point.

You do have to sort of have that...

come to Jesus moment when you say, well, wait a minute, you know, let me get a handle on this and maybe a little forgiveness here or a little bit of empathy, a little of, you know, putting myself in the position of this person that I'm trying to show.

Greg Norman's dad, you know, the golfer, you know, that there's so many people like that, that it does become toxic, but it's, like you say, it can produce great success because it drives people.

Yeah.

It was quite embarrassing, yeah.

But was the movie that bad?

Oh, it was terrible.