Susan Hayes-Cullerton

But I really want to challenge that assumption because I think the narrative and the reality don't match up.

And what's more, we don't talk about the economics of failure and the impact of what the skills and experience built up in a business that doesn't live on forever actually mean in the economy and to the people in it.

So to do a deeper dive on this, we're going to get three different perspectives.

Joining me now is economics lecturer at TU Dublin, Emma Howard, and author of Why Startups Fail, Bernie Bulkin.

Plus, we're also joined by somebody in the trenches in the form of entrepreneur Kevin O'Loughlin, who is the CEO of Nostra, and he has had to ride out the tough times to achieve business success.

So, Emma, I'm going to start with you.

According to the US Bureau of Labour Statistics...

21.5% of startups fail within their first year, 48.4% fail within five years, 65.1% fail within 10 years.

What's the macro economic effect of this?

In fairness to you, Emma, one of the reasons that I really like to talk to you is because you give a balanced and a rounded approach as opposed to looking at this solely from one negative perspective.

There is roundedness to that, which is the impact of the learnings and the spillover.

But Kevin, I want to put Emma's first point to you, which is

As economists, one might look at the market or look at the world and say how do you make changes at the margin?

It doesn't work like that though in business, does it?

You can't just say well I'll tweak X and Y. Often you need to take big strategic bets.

What's been your experience?

While I agree with you that necessity is the mother of all innovation, Kevin, I also wouldn't recommend it to anybody to get into a crisis so that they may sharpen the saw.

How do you think businesses can proactively develop resilience and still keep sharp?

And I'm going to pick up on the point about the risk that comes with being first in a little while in our conversation, Kevin.

But first of all, Bernie, in your preface in the book, and just to repeat the name, the book is Why Startups Fail, you put forward a definition of failure, which I don't always see, and that is when investors do not get more money back...