Tina Knowles
Appearances
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Well, I think my fearlessness came from survival. You know, for someone to tell you I'm going to break the evil spirit in you and you just vibe like... I knew that if I didn't stand up to them, that they would just really abuse me.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And vain. They used to always say, and I went home and asked my mom, I was like, what is vain? And she said, it's when you think you're cute. And I was like, oh, I'm never going to have anybody think that I think I'm cute. But I would say in my head, I would call them the B word in my head because I was a little cusser. And I would just think to myself, no, you're not. No, you're not.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And stand up to them. I was just so stubborn. I mean, if you talk to anyone in my family, they will tell you how stubborn I was.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Well, that's a great question. You know, I've always preached to my daughters that you got to knock the doors down and that you should be at home at any space that you choose. And I mean, that was preached to them from the time they were younger because I wasn't given that. I wasn't given that message all the time from my mother. But what I did get from her is that it was an honor to be black.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
I think you can. This is pretty good. Well, I love this artist. He's an African artist in Lagos. And I've got several paintings from him. And he always puts cherry blossoms behind it. And his paintings remind me of my mom. You know, I grew up in this little town. raggedy house, but my mom had the most beautiful rose bushes and she just had this green thumb and there were flowers everywhere.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
That it was spicier, that it was, you know, it was strong. It was the best. That our music was the best. And our cooking was the best. The way we walked, the way we dressed. I mean, my mom loved dressing. And I mean, that's such a great thing. My daddy and my mama were sharp. They didn't have any money, but they made sure they're sharp, even if they had to get, you know, Goodwill.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
I got Goodwill shoes my whole younger life because my mom would say, I'm finding you some Buster Browns. Y'all remember Buster Browns? Anybody old enough to know Buster Browns? So I was always taught to be very, very proud of being black.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Yes. Yes. Because, you know, we didn't have a lot of boys. So I was like, the name is going to become extinct. So I named her Beyonce. Much to my dad, he was like, girl, that baby going to be really mad at you. Because you're naming her a last name.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Yes, it was very important to me to just highlight both of them, because obviously, you know, when I go on shows or I do anything, people, you know, they they like to talk about one of my children. And so I have to include all of them. Yeah, that was really, really important. It's a constant thing for me to have to fight for.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Well, it was very obvious from the very beginning because Solange, one of my girlfriends, was very structured, very educated. You know, everything had to be a certain way. Her kids made straight A's and Solange was very attracted to it. So she was always telling me I didn't measure up to Cheryl. Yeah. In no uncertain terms, you know, and Beyonce loved the freedom of not having a structure.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And Beyonce was very much like me because I never enjoyed school. I don't ever have a good memory other than the talent shows or the Black History Program or something that was creative or even home economics where I got to sew and do things. I'm that creative force. And I think for B in her creative space, I think she was very much like me.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
So I could really relate to her because she could do the work if she wanted to, but she didn't want to. If she could have skipped school, she would have skipped school and just had her music career. Oh, yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
We always had flower wallpaper and, you know, flowers were so representative of her and her spirit. Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
You took the girls to the beach and Solange was very upset because what kind of mother would let us skip school? Right. She would say it all the time. She would say it to my friend Cheryl and she would say it to the therapist and the therapist is like, you know, Solange needs structure.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And I'm like, God, you know, it's like I wasn't a good mom because I love for them to miss school and hang out with me. And my mama loved for me to miss school. She would say, your stomach hurt? Okay, you don't have to go. And so I know that that wasn't the responsible thing. And she reminds me to this day of, you know, she accepts it now, Solange does.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
But when she went to see the therapist, she was like, my mama is so irresponsible. I think this is so interesting that you...
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
I got so scared because they were, like, super close. Then all of a sudden, Solange was going, taking Beyonce's stuff, and Beyonce was kind of being a little mean to her, and I had never seen it before. It scared me to death because I was like, I want them to be close, and I want them to respect and love each other. Is this after Beyonce started performing? Yeah, Beyonce was performing.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
She was this little local... you know, star and Solange was coming, doing, she started very early too, but it was like people would, if they saw the two girls, they would say, oh, God, you know, oh, she's so talented. And you know how they do. And then my other child is there, and I'm like, hey, you better tell her something, too. So I didn't have any problem doing that.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
But I saw this thing, and I think... You saw the division starting to happen. I saw the division, and also what really shocked me and made me move forward with it was the girls, the group was at our house all the time, and I just noticed they started saying, Sit down, Solange. Shut up, Solange. And Beyonce wasn't defending her.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
So that mama bear, that defender in me said, uh-uh, you got to protect your sister. She's like, but she gets on my nerves. She's all in my stuff. So that's why I took them. And it was the best thing I could have ever done for them because they got close again.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And Beyonce started respecting Solange because, you know, the therapist was saying, you're going to make your little sister, you know, feel very insecure.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
She was seven years old and she did this parochial, they called it a parochial school talent show up to high school. And I was so scared because I was like, they're going to ruin her confidence. But she got out there and just... turned into the biggest little diva on stage. And she was shy, you know, very shy. That's why we got her into it anyway. And she, we couldn't believe that it was her.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And she came off the stage. I mean, she got a standing ovation and she came off the stage and she was like, I'm hungry. I want to just get my trophy and my money and go. And I'm like, oh, my God. Because, you know, that old thing about being cocky or thinking you're cute or thinking you're all that kicked in for me. So I was like, you don't know if you won and you got to be humble.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
But anyway, it was the best thing that could happen to her because she could turn it off. Like when she came off the stage, she was just Beyonce. And she's still like that. I mean, she's the furthest thing from a diva that you could be.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Well... You know, I thought I'd never do a memoir because, as you know, my family is super private, more so than me. But I always felt like I had to protect everybody and not talk about things.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
She is because everything is seen through the lens of art. I mean, sometimes it's irritating because I'm like, girl, this ain't art. This is life. But that's how she sees things as an art piece. And it's different. It's really unique. Yes. Yes. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And there have been so many narratives about me and my family, so many misconceptions, so many lies, that I decided one day, you know, do I want people to tell my story after I'm gone and create their own narrative? Or should I tell it? So that was very, very important to me that I got the story out myself.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
It felt so normal to me because Johnny was so special. And I just thought everybody accepted. You know, we just always accepted it. And his mother accepted him and my mother accepted him. He was, you know, her favorite grandchild. And so... People respected him because we respected him. Oh, that's such a powerful thing. People respected him because the family respected him.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And my brothers respected him. My brothers were these macho athletes, and my nephews were. But they accepted Johnny. They walked down the street with Johnny and his sharp clothes, and we were proud of him, and so everybody else was. Didn't they try to get him one time to play ball, some kind of ball? Yeah, they made him play basketball. He didn't like it at all. What happened to you two? Same.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Right. They were going to macho him up a bit. But just to protect him, though, it came from a love of protection for him, not from a we're going to beat you down type way. And they left him alone after that. And they was like, Johnny, I'll make the costumes for basketball. But he didn't know how to play basketball.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Yeah. not only the record company, but when I would go to shoots and people wouldn't talk to me or, you know, because I was country and I had this big hair and I never in the early days would do myself up because I was so busy all the time. And it was also a thing of not wanting to Stand out, I think.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
You know, I've thought about it many times because I don't have a passive personality, but I would let people say things because I think I thought I deserved to be not on their level back then.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And then that all changed when? Well, it changed later, but it was a fight. The whole thing was a fight for a long time. And then, you know, but people love the costumes. The people love the costumes. The fashion magazines didn't love them. The designers didn't love them. They made fun of it all the time.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And even to the point where I remember Beyoncé went to the Oscars one year, and I did this fabulous gown with, like, origami. It was black and gold. And everybody was going crazy on the red carpet. And then when she said, finally felt comfortable to say, my mom did the dress, they said that it looked like I got the fabric out the drapes and made it for her.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Because it was like, you know, and it was so...
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
First of all, I hope that I made it very clear in the book that my whole life with Matthew was not filled with heartache, that there were some amazing moments also. I also had just lost my mom at 26. He knew my mom. I knew his mom. And what he was was so kind to my family. My family is everything to me. So imagine you losing your mom at 26. Your brothers and sisters are older.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
They got their own families, and you feel so alone. And like, that's my best friend, you know? And in a lot of ways, he had an issue, but he was so kind to me. And it sounds crazy, because that's not kind of cheat on somebody. I think he had, you know, he had an illness, but we were a team and, you know, we had kids and we built a life together. We built businesses together.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
We connected on so many levels. So I don't know, when I look at it now, I can't believe I stayed there for that long. Self-esteem issues, obviously. You know, those nuns telling me I wasn't good enough. So I was like, I'm lucky to have somebody that's successful and smart and better than me. Did you ever, in some ways, you think that?
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Oh, yeah, at times, yeah. I think you do go through that when somebody cheats on you. And it also keeps you in a cycle of it's kind of like somebody slapping you in the face and then you don't get to recover. And then you get another slap in the face. You can't really get your strength up, you know. And there were times when I did get my strength up.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
But then I would have these kids and I say, you know, I'm going to be by myself for the rest of my life because I'm not going to bring some man around my kids. You know, that was always that fear of protection. And I swear, every time somebody would start messing with me and he was my protector. He was always a protector. He's still my protector.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
If something went wrong, I would want him on my team.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Because you all are grandparents together. Yeah, we're fine. I say in the book that I still love him as a brother. Even though the things he did, I knew that they were out of an illness. They weren't intentional. And that sounds crazy. I know I still sound codependent, but... I just know that he would take a bullet for me. And if somebody messed with me, he was right there all the time.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
He was the person who always told me you could do anything. You could do anything you put your mind to. You can have whatever you want to have. I mean, he believed in me when... When nobody else did. Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
He just told me that I told him what happened and he loves Richard also. And he was like, I'm very sad to hear that. And I said, but, you know, this marriage is not bringing out the best in me. And I... have finally found my worth, and I know that I deserve to be happy. I know I deserve for somebody to be happy when they see me and to celebrate me. And it's not doing it for me.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
It's bringing out the worst in me, and it's got to stop. And he said, I mean, he was teary-eyed. He was like, I am so proud of you coming from a family where women stayed no matter what. And it's taken a lot of courage. I said, I'm doing this for my daughters too. So I want to set that example for them.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And he said, you're not only doing it for your daughters, but you're doing it for your grandson. Because you think that you're doing something to stay in a marriage that's unhappy, that you're not celebrated or you feel fulfilled. You are affecting your grandson too because he wants you to be happy and how he's going to treat the woman that comes along. And I never thought about that.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
But he was just so supportive of me.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Well, that was after my divorce. And I was really nervous about it because I had been so engrossed in taking care of them and making sure that they were okay and not feeling worthy of, you know, just loving myself and taking care of myself or taking a day off. If I was in the middle of something that I really wanted to do and my girls called me, I would drop
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
whatever, whomever, and be right there. And so I felt like I had to have that talk with them to warn them. And I was scared of how they would react because, you know, you guys know, mothers are kind of taken. My kids are wonderful. They acknowledge me. They love me. They would do anything for me, but they do. Kids, it's a kid's nature to be a little self-centered, but
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
I told them, and surprisingly, they said, Mom, we're so happy to hear that because, you know, they were excited for me. They weren't pissed off about it. They were actually excited that I was going to have my own life. Lindsay, you have a question. Hi.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
I am truly at peace with myself. I have never felt better about myself in my life. There's something about turning 70 that all of my mistakes and things, the shame that I had about a lot of things, I tell them all the time, and I don't know if I can say this, but I don't give a shit. Any more about what somebody thinks of me, what they say about me, I'm just protective of my kids.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
So I don't want to ever do anything to embarrass them or make them feel bad. But other than that, what you say about me kind of rolls off my back because I... feel good about me. I feel good about taking the time for myself to look nice and to dress nice and to take care of me. I don't have any guilt or shame about it. So I feel really good about it. And I know that I made a lot of mistakes.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And I think if I had anything that I would do over again, it would be that I would have left the marriage way earlier because I still feel that I didn't set the greatest example in that way for them. I think you've done a pretty darn good job.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
It's funny because my girls will say, Mama, you don't always have to have your dukes up. You know, Beyonce tells me that all the time. But I think I had to fight for space. But I... I think, I don't know if it was the nuns telling me I didn't belong, that I fought to belong in the spaces that I've been in. And I taught them from day one that they deserve to be anywhere that they wanted to be.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And that's, again, people will not always welcome you, but you got to welcome yourself. Okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Oh, God. The proudest moments are when they do something that's not about entertainment, but when they do a charitable thing and they are good people, just regular good people and have good hearts. That sounds corny and it sounds like a cliche, but it's really the truth. I just get so full and so proud when they...
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
respect people and they do charity or they do, you know, something that's a normal thing. You've got to have been proud. Listen.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
But you know what? It was more so than pride. I felt like it was fair. That was my happiness. I just felt like they gave her a fair shot. Yes. For the real... You know, she's won a lot of Grammys, but sometimes I felt like some of those were consolation prizes. And so, for me... I don't know if I was so much proud as I was happy for her. Like, finally. Yeah, finally.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
You got the recognition you deserve. You got the recognition you deserved, you know? For an album that was so out of the box. Yeah. Yeah. And that came from a place of, of pride for her because when she went to that awards show, you know, she was not treated well. And it was very much me back at Holy Rosary when somebody said, you don't belong here. And, you know, you're not good enough.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And that was like saying, I took my seat at the table, whether you like it or not, and I deserve to be here. I deserve to be anywhere I want to be.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
I wondered about that. Why? But they really set us up. And if I wasn't badass Teenie B who produced badass Beyoncé, we would have said, okay, we better go back to the drawing board. Yeah. But that just made us want to fight. And it challenged her to go and get Jay on the record, which is great. But the sad part is it came because she said they wouldn't do this to Jay.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
They wouldn't tell him this, but they're telling me this.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Not from the beginning, because they talked for like a year on the phone. And I was like, oh, God, I don't ever remember talking to somebody for a year on the phone. Like, this is moving really slow. And so it took them a year to really get together when she went to do, you know, the movie in L.A. was, I think, the first time that they he had been to our house for dinner.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And, you know, but they weren't dating then and they weren't talking like that. So, yeah, it took a long time.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
That is... I can't believe how good of a mother they are. All of them. They're just... really good mothers that are natural and that they love their kids and they put their kids first. And I'm getting emotional because I feel like I passed that on because my kids were always my priority. Because I did a lot of screwing up when I was younger and I was, you know, A little bit rebellious.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And, you know, I went through the thing with being mad at my mom. And so all the things that she didn't give me, I decided I was going to give it to them.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
It was the most hurtful thing ever because I wasn't thinking about screwing in because I was really focused on getting out of that town. I don't know if I'm saying the wrong thing, but I'm just saying like I wasn't. And so it was a very painful thing for me. So what it said to you is your mom didn't trust you. She didn't trust me. But my mom told me eventually, it wasn't you that I didn't trust.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Well, just research. I was amazed by their resilience and their... ability to still take care of their kids and make sure that they weren't sold or separated from them.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And just think about how could black southern moms would fear every time your child is is out of the house. And I'm fearful every time my grandson is out of the house. You know, I'm like, you know, make sure you do this. I mean, we as black women have to teach our sons and our grandsons and our granddaughters.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Because my mom was always saying, you got the biggest mouth and you don't know how to control your temper and you're so smart mouth. If somebody stops you, just shut up. Just shut up and make it home. And that's the shame that we have to tell our kids to shut up and make it home.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
I am 70 and I just learned that I am enough. I wish I would have realized this at 40 or 50, maybe even younger, but that is why I am telling you. I've tried to collect as much of that wisdom as I can to pass on here. This precious time of gathering memories is closing. It's not an end, I know, but my new beginning.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And then... Well, they just didn't dig for people. They said there was no way that they could survive. And his brothers were like, we'll do it. You guys don't have to do it. But they put them out. And so they snuck back in after they closed. They blew the whistle at three and they dug my daddy and the other man out. So they saved them.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And instead of being applauded for it, which you would think that they would have been, they were actually arrested and fired and...
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Yeah. Because of all the camaraderie, because my sister had eight kids and my brother had four, and they all came to our house. So for me, even though we had this really poor little raggedy house, everybody was at our house. And so I just felt like... How could you feel bad about that? Because we just created our own playground, our own world.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And I just never really thought about being poor until, you know, I went to Catholic school and I was pointed out to me every day how poor we were and how unworthy we were.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Well, you don't belong here, you know, if you only knew. And I was like, what does that mean? I had no idea what that meant. And you were how old? I was five.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
It is. Yeah. It is. And it was the source of my insecurity my whole life is not belonging. are people making up their mind about you before they even know you. And it's still, I'm 71 and it's still making me emotional right now because it was such a, it's just such a horrible, evil thing to say to a kid. Because you're already insecure about everything.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
It did the opposite to me because also my parents were 44 when they had me. And I realized that after seven kids and all the struggles, they were just tired. So I just had this mouth on me from day one. And, you know, I remember my aunt used to come over and she would be like, that teeny got the... You just need to discipline her because she has no respect. But it wasn't respect.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
If she said something, I said, why? I questioned her. And my parents allowed me just because they were tired. And I had a smart mouth. And I also realized in this book that because my mother was... Yeah. To everyone. I used to get so angry at her for being so passive. And, you know, I could tell her that. And my mom would just say, oh, be quiet, teeny.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And I remember us going to like a young white woman's house and her calling my mom Agnes. They always called her Agnes. And she said, Miss Smith. miss. And I was just a little kid, but I would be like, she's younger than you. You shouldn't tell her to call you miss. And my mom would say, teeny, shut up.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Protect me, yeah. And instead... And instead my mom says, I said, I don't like them and they're really mean and I don't want to go because I thought it was optional. And she said, oh, you don't have a choice. You have to go back. And she brought me back across the street.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
So the nuns, the nuns. They came to me and said, oh, do you have a pretty white dress? It was going to be for some ceremony. Every Friday in Catholic school. During Lent, they would crown the Blessed Virgin Mary. So you get to wear a little dress, white dress, and a mantilla like you're a bride, and you get to crown the statue. And I thought, oh, God, they like me.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
So I went home, and my mom, it was on a Wednesday, and my mom got a remnant little piece of fabric and made me this beautiful dress. And then I brought the dress back, and they took the dress from me and gave it to Linda Kennison. Now, I'm 71 years old, but I remember Linda Kennison. And they said... Where is Linda Kennison today?
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And they're like, her mom passed away, and I was very sympathetic, but I was like, I still don't want her to have my dress, which set up a lot of guilt in me because I was like...
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
Absolutely. And I felt so guilty because I was like, I should not be... They were like, you're selfish. You're just such a mean, vain little girl. And your mother says, give her the dress. And I'm like, I don't want her to have my dress. I mean, I was ready to fight her. And I was mad at the little girl, which made me feel bad because then my mom said, you still got your mom.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
We can make you a new dress, but she can't make another mom. So it was so confusing and abusive to a little kid. Yeah. But... The lesson in that that is so memorable for me is that the day she wore the dress, I mean, she wore the dress and crowned the Blessed Virgin Mary because she was so happy. And it meant so much to me because I did that.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And that's why my mom was so smart, because she said, you did that. You brought her that joy by giving her something that was so important to you. So my whole life, if something is really, really dear to me, when I give it away, It means so much more because it's something that I really valued.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
And it's easy to give away stuff that you don't care about, but it's really hard to give away things that you love.
The Oprah Podcast
Tina Knowles: "Matriarch" | Oprah's Book Club
I think they resented you. They resented you. It was a class thing. Yeah, it was a class thing, for sure, because they felt like their self-worth was tied into teaching a teacher's kids, and they shouldn't have to be bothered with us little poor kids. Like, we just didn't measure up, and so it was a waste of their time. That's what I've got from them all the time, for sure.