Tom Bradby

He was a Mormon.

He gave interviews saying that he'd been most inspired growing up by his grandparents' stories of World War II and the sacrifice.

And then he's taking cash from the Russians.

to make pro-Russian speeches at the European Parliament.

It's just wild to me that it happens.

So I think the truth of the matter is there's probably a bit less Russian influence here than there was 10 years ago, but there's more danger that what there is is potentially pernicious.

And when I talk to people in MI5, they seem pretty hard pressed to me.

I mean, they don't say, yeah, we've got it all under control.

They're like, no, it's hard.

It's tough.

And we're under the gun a bit.

No.

My impression, I just wanted to put to you on that, is the way someone characterized it to me not very long ago is the Chinese are basically engaged in stealing everything.

They're hacking everything.

They're stealing everything, data, information, intellectual capital, because they've got volume, just huge numbers of people working for them.

Half the time, they don't know what they want with it or what they're going to do with it or even what value it has, but they want to have it.

Whereas it seems to me that Russia is a sort of more actively hostile force.

Go back to the very start of the conversation.

If you make the argument that by having Donald Trump in the White House, somebody who's essentially quite pro-Russian, you have potentially peeled off

America from NATO or made America an unreliable NATO ally, that if the Russian intelligence services were to claim credit for that outcome, you might say, well, they don't deserve it.